Author Topic: Modelling 'hit quality' ?? (Read 841 times)

BenDover · « **Reply #15 on:** March 04, 2003, 02:29:07 PM »

lol @ freeze's sig

Kweassa · « **Reply #16 on:** March 04, 2003, 06:22:06 PM »

Thanks for your reply Pyro!

Looking forward to the changes of AH2..

ps) I know you guys are busy, but getting answers from the developers are always satisfying and delightful

Griego · « **Reply #17 on:** March 05, 2003, 12:25:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
RatPanat,

AH does model kinetic engery of the bullets. This is very clear when you notice how many 50 cal hits it takes to kill you at 1000 yards as opposed to 250 yards.

Actually, I've never been killed by 50 cal hits at 1000 yards. 50 call hits out there seem like minor annoyances.

I have. I have lost wings from being hit at 1000yds. I've lost engines from being hit 2000yds from gunner in a bomber. I have heard hit register from 2500yds out from gunners. The fatherest out i've heard shots from a fighter is 1200yds.

I'm on cable with a 60ms ping to MA, or else I would think it's a lag problem. Then again it still might be.

devious · « **Reply #18 on:** March 05, 2003, 03:39:55 PM »

A round should penetrate/ricochet/explode on contact/proximity based on it`s type, velocity, angle of impact and type of surface hit.

Then it should damage the interior parts that ARE THERE, ie a wing fuel tank, nothing at all if you`re lucky, tear up a control surface etc. Internal ricochets would be over the top I guess.

HE rounds should produce shrapnel and blasts that damage stuff.

There should be degradatory damage, control surfaces that get more and more inefficient with holes, damage to the steering system; engines with shot-out cylinders; bullet holes in canopies; leaking hydraulic fluid where applicable; instruments showing wrong/no more readings........

Pretty pretty please.

hazed- · « **Reply #19 on:** March 05, 2003, 04:53:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by RatPenat
At 1000yds any real pilot at WWII would open fire he knew he barely can hit enemy and with a very low damage if he does.

er would you like to quote a pilot or reference that says this?

I agree there are many pilots who say you get in close or you will miss but they are speaking about in general, not about the top marksmen. They got in close because most pilots , green and experienced could not deflect shoot too well.The obvious reasoning tells them to teach pilots to get in close, not to waste ammo etc.Its different when your life depends onyour ammo load.They didnt fire at huge distances often because 90% of pilots didnt have the skill.
To take this to mean it should be impossible to damage at 1000 yards is rediculous. Its quite clearly stated that the effective range of B17s 50 cals were 1000 yards. This was said by allied and axis forces alike. By effective range these pilots mean you can be shot down in this distance right?. There are also accounts by pilots like johnny johnson(RAF top ace) and many others of them taking long range shots and hitting forcing the enemies to dive out and run with damage.As for effective range in the LW :
Heres a quote from 'Luftwaffe fighter force:View from the cockpit' by Adolf Galland et al, David S Isby ISBN 1-85367-327-7

'MG 17 77.9mm 200 metres effective range
MG 131 13mm 400 meters effective range
MG 151 15mm 600 meters effective range
MG 151/20 20mm 400 meters effective range
MGFF 20mm 400 meters effective range
MK 103 3cm 800 meters effective range
MK 108 3cm 400 meters effective range
BK 5 5cm 800 meters effective range'

As you can see the longest effective range here is easily up to a 1000 yards.Maybe some are shorter but most of these weapons have a far lower velocity than the .50 cal and so it would be acceptable to assume the 50 cal would be effective to at least the same 800 meters.Definately not as damaging as the 3cm rounds but they can take down an aircraft if they hit the right area.

HOWEVER, I do agree that maybe sometimes it does seem the damage you receive seems to exceed the damage possible from such distances in AH but like pyro says those lucky shots are modeled and are not garenteed every time. 'Lucky shots' at distance can take you out of the fight.

LLv34_Camouflage · « **Reply #20 on:** March 06, 2003, 06:36:58 AM »

Please read about the following questions and think about them next time you fly AH:

-How often are you shot down in AH?
-How often are you killed "fair and square", from close range, by multiple hits?
-How often do you receive pings from long range?
-How often do these hits result in damage?
-How often do these hits result in a "no prior damage" death?
-Compare to question #1, what percentage do these "long range lucky ping deaths" represent?

And same things vice versa: how often do you get a lucky kill? Better yet, how often do you think "wow this is porked" after scoring such a kill?

If you are a good pilot, I would imagine you get shot down rarely in a fair fight. After all, if you're good, you just dont let the enemy get too close on your six. In that case, a larger percentage of your deaths would result from these long range lucky shots. Its statistics, really?

Camo

Starbird · « **Reply #21 on:** March 06, 2003, 07:58:52 PM »

Will we still be able to see hit sprites under the cowl?

RatPenat · « **Reply #22 on:** March 07, 2003, 12:20:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hazed-
er would you like to quote a pilot or reference that says this?

I agree there are many pilots who say you get in close or you will miss but they are speaking about in general, not about the top marksmen. They got in close because most pilots , green and experienced could not deflect shoot too well.The obvious reasoning tells them to teach pilots to get in close, not to waste ammo etc.Its different when your life depends onyour ammo load.They didnt fire at huge distances often because 90% of pilots didnt have the skill.
To take this to mean it should be impossible to damage at 1000 yards is rediculous. Its quite clearly stated that the effective range of B17s 50 cals were 1000 yards. This was said by allied and axis forces alike. By effective range these pilots mean you can be shot down in this distance right?. There are also accounts by pilots like johnny johnson(RAF top ace) and many others of them taking long range shots and hitting forcing the enemies to dive out and run with damage.As for effective range in the LW :
Heres a quote from 'Luftwaffe fighter force:View from the cockpit' by Adolf Galland et al, David S Isby ISBN 1-85367-327-7

'MG 17 77.9mm 200 metres effective range
MG 131 13mm 400 meters effective range
MG 151 15mm 600 meters effective range
MG 151/20 20mm 400 meters effective range
MGFF 20mm 400 meters effective range
MK 103 3cm 800 meters effective range
MK 108 3cm 400 meters effective range
BK 5 5cm 800 meters effective range'

As you can see the longest effective range here is easily up to a 1000 yards.Maybe some are shorter but most of these weapons have a far lower velocity than the .50 cal and so it would be acceptable to assume the 50 cal would be effective to at least the same 800 meters.Definately not as damaging as the 3cm rounds but they can take down an aircraft if they hit the right area.

HOWEVER, I do agree that maybe sometimes it does seem the damage you receive seems to exceed the damage possible from such distances in AH but like pyro says those lucky shots are modeled and are not garenteed every time. 'Lucky shots' at distance can take you out of the fight.

Just i would say LOL. I would have to find a real history from a b17 gunner. They can't shoot anything at less 400yds. Hartman, Rall, Saburo, etc shoot at 9km or maybe 9.5km with AIMs and kill enemy of course.

JB42 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 07, 2003, 01:29:26 PM »

Leave real life out of this. There are way to many factors NOT included in AH that were at work in real life. Turbulance, wind, and the fact that wings bend during ACMs. The issue isn't whether the rounds are capable of doing damage at distance, but rather the ease of directing them. All you math majors out there compute this: 1 bullet fired and a second fired at 3 degrees difference. At 1000 yds what is the distance of the dispersion?

slimm50 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 07, 2003, 02:19:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BenDover
would this help stop spray and pray dweebs from taking my wing off with a few stray pings?

C'mon Bend..yer killin me here. That's my only hope of gettin most of my kills now.

Greg Stelmack · « **Reply #25 on:** March 07, 2003, 07:46:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by JB42
Leave real life out of this. There are way to many factors NOT included in AH that were at work in real life. Turbulance, wind, and the fact that wings bend during ACMs.

I looked into doing ballistics calculations for work one time and you would not BELIEVE the factors that go into predicting what path a bullet will follow. Calculating artillery especially is a pain because you have to take into account the coriolis effect from the earth spinning!

Not to mention that a difference of mere millimeters or fractions of degrees of angle in where or how a bullet hits can have a huge impact on the damage done.

So any simulation model that's done in real-time for a game is going to be a compromise and a rough approximation of probabilities.

And "effective" range for weapons is a rough measure of how likely you are to hit with that weapon in ideal conditions, not while attached to a vibrating airframe being slung around the sky...

Gman · « **Reply #26 on:** March 07, 2003, 08:11:03 PM »

Greg Stelmack....you used to work for redstorm right with your brother Garry right?

Greg Stelmack · « **Reply #27 on:** March 07, 2003, 08:12:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gman
Greg Stelmack....you used to work for redstorm right with your brother Garry right?

"used to" is not the proper term