Author Topic: Modelling 'hit quality' ?? (Read 842 times)

Kweassa · « **on:** March 03, 2003, 08:16:52 AM »

Ok. This might be a big suggestion! But it would be interesting if AH2 modelled the 'hit quality' of shots fired.. whether if it is a stray AP ping on the surface which bounces off, or a deep penetration.. or whether the cannon shells explode on the surface of contact, or bury into a certain depth, doing maximum damage.

Even some of the most recent sims who claim to have modelled such aspect, have some distinct problems and quirks(such as IL-2.. sometimes the enemy plane survives 3~4 MK108 hits with almost no visible damage!!), so it might be something pretty difficult to model. But it would be really great if AH2 can successfully implement such features.

BenDover · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2003, 09:38:34 AM »

would this help stop spray and pray dweebs from taking my wing off with a few stray pings?

RatPenat · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2003, 11:29:55 AM »

It would help if they model bullet cinetic. All bullets lost cinetic energy, at AH seems no. Dweebs can shoot you down near 1000 yds or 1500 yds when you are very high.
At IL2 it is better modeled that and you can't do too much damage people that is over 400 or more meters.

BenDover · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2003, 01:02:56 PM »

kinetic

Shiva · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2003, 01:54:10 PM »

It also depends on what you're being hit with; a 20mm explosive shell, as long as it hits hard enough to set off the bursting charge, doesn't care whether it hits at 900fps or 10 fps; it's going to do the same amount of blast damage either way.

wetrat · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:43:18 PM »

I've been trying to squeeze information about the damage model out of Skuzzy every time I see him, but to no avail

In my mind, the damage model is all that's wrong with the gameplay (note: gameplay does not include graphics) in the AH we have now.

Karnak · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2003, 05:48:46 PM »

RatPanat,

AH does model kinetic engery of the bullets. This is very clear when you notice how many 50 cal hits it takes to kill you at 1000 yards as opposed to 250 yards.

Actually, I've never been killed by 50 cal hits at 1000 yards. 50 call hits out there seem like minor annoyances.

Furious · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2003, 06:56:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Shiva
It also depends on what you're being hit with; a 20mm explosive shell, as long as it hits hard enough to set off the bursting charge, doesn't care whether it hits at 900fps or 10 fps; it's going to do the same amount of blast damage either way.

This is not true is the HE round does not have enough energy to penetrate the structure prior to detonation. The HE component will do MUCH more damage exploding inside the structure than outside.

F.

Pyro · « **Reply #8 on:** March 04, 2003, 12:11:58 AM »

Karnak is correct, AH does model kinetic energy of rounds, both in the actual drop in velocity and the resultant effect that has on damage.

Back to the topic of this thread: A single .50 could pass through an aircraft leaving 2 half inch holes that would be fairly inconsequential and that a metalsmith could repair in an hour. It could also cause catastrophic results. This difference between the two could be the result of less than 1/2" of bullet placement. Some planes of the same type withstood tremendous amounts of hits while others went down with very few hits. That's just reality.

The inherent paradox of damage modeling in simulation is that the more realistic you make it, the greater the number of possible results. The greater number of possible results, the less the consistency. The less the consistency, the less the people think the damage model is realistic. It's a crazy circle.

Bendover's (and I'm not picking on you, I understand where you're coming from) response typifies most people's view on it. The famous last words of Union General John Sedgwick are purported to be "They couldn't hit an elephant from this distance," just before he was shot dead by a Confederate sniper. The difference between that and simulation - in real life it's chance, irony, a cruel twist of fate. In simulation people call it B.S when that happens to them.

But I digress, we are making a lot of improvements in this area for AH2 and I'm really looking forward to it.

BenDover · « **Reply #9 on:** March 04, 2003, 02:03:33 AM »

Pyro is picking on me?

boo-hu-hu-hu-hu-hu-hu-hu

RatPenat · « **Reply #10 on:** March 04, 2003, 09:07:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
RatPanat,

AH does model kinetic engery of the bullets. This is very clear when you notice how many 50 cal hits it takes to kill you at 1000 yards as opposed to 250 yards.

Actually, I've never been killed by 50 cal hits at 1000 yards. 50 call hits out there seem like minor annoyances.

Karnek

Do you know what is it convergence??? ok max convergence here is 650 if you shoot someone at 1000 yds you are shooting his wings with a open trajectory low damage. Try with a p38 with nose guns (only 4 nose guns). At 1000yds you would have a close dispersion big damage because no kinetic modeled or very very poor modeled (thanx).
I can said you i kill a no damaged 190 (o yes 190) at 1000-1300 at 27k with a p38 shooting with only .50. He was running with autopilot thinkink he can't catch my D9 now. I've destroyed a couple of lancaster wings at more 1000 yds at 20k+.
At 1000yds any real pilot at WWII would open fire he knew he barely can hit enemy and with a very low damage if he does.

RatPenat · « **Reply #11 on:** March 04, 2003, 09:35:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pyro
Karnak is correct, AH does model kinetic energy of rounds, both in the actual drop in velocity and the resultant effect that has on damage.

Back to the topic of this thread: A single .50 could pass through an aircraft leaving 2 half inch holes that would be fairly inconsequential and that a metalsmith could repair in an hour. It could also cause catastrophic results. This difference between the two could be the result of less than 1/2" of bullet placement. Some planes of the same type withstood tremendous amounts of hits while others went down with very few hits. That's just reality.

The inherent paradox of damage modeling in simulation is that the more realistic you make it, the greater the number of possible results. The greater number of possible results, the less the consistency. The less the consistency, the less the people think the damage model is realistic. It's a crazy circle.

Bendover's (and I'm not picking on you, I understand where you're coming from) response typifies most people's view on it. The famous last words of Union General John Sedgwick are purported to be "They couldn't hit an elephant from this distance," just before he was shot dead by a Confederate sniper. The difference between that and simulation - in real life it's chance, irony, a cruel twist of fate. In simulation people call it B.S when that happens to them.

But I digress, we are making a lot of improvements in this area for AH2 and I'm really looking forward to it.

Are you saying me that when i check six and i see a F6F shooting my poor plane at 1300 yds (i know with my delay and his delay and big speed probably it will be at 900) and he hit my P38 with a couple or more bullets and i lose my wing (no damaged before of course) or elevators or ailerons or .... that i m dreaming???

AH 1000yds + speed + spray tactic = VERY USUAL KILL OR DAMAGE
RL 1000yds + speed + spray tactic = REALLY REALLY REALLY GOOD LUCK KILL OR DAMAGE

Or is it implemented that bullets cut cables at AH?

Batz · « **Reply #12 on:** March 04, 2003, 10:09:45 AM »

No thats not what he saying.

The problem isnt that a 50 cal can hit you and hurt and kill you at 900yrds. Thats not in question, or are you questioning that?

The problem that for whatever intangible reason it would seem that hits at that range are fairly easy.

But you can easily check bullet drop and dispersion using the dot target command.

What Pyro is saying is that the more complex the DM the more inconsistancies there will be. Then inevitably there will be more "whining".

Now narrowing down the intagibles to bring the "effective kill" range down to what we all read about ww2 a2a gunnery is difficult.

We have aids like icons and range counters, ammo counters and easily visible tracers. Also this is a game and your real life isnt on the line. You arent cold, you dont feel the effects of flying the plane. The hits sprits in game are easily visible at range etc.........

Not mention the amount of experience all of us have by playing the game everyday. Also the DM isnt as complicated as it was in rl.

Theres more to gunnery then just ballistics.

The question becomes do you want real life "physics" or real life "results". I mean ht could just make the bullets vanish at 400 yrds and the we wouldnt have to worry about 900yrd kills.

As I said you can check bullet drop and dispersion using the dot target command. Bullets do drop considerably at longer ranges.

SKurj · « **Reply #13 on:** March 04, 2003, 10:30:14 AM »

I've only had 1 1000+ kill... that was RAM's runstang at d1.1 with a YakT.. of course there was alotta drop on the shot and he was really nice and level +)

Musta been d1.3 on his FE if not more..

SKurj

fffreeze220 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2003, 12:59:47 PM »

P.A.T.C.D.R

People Against The Current Damage Randomizer