Author Topic: Fw 190A-9  (Read 2053 times)

Offline MANDOBLE

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Re: Okay, I'll take the bait.........
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2003, 04:05:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eddiek
What the heck is FB?


Forgotten Blattles (IL2 cont).

Offline brady

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2003, 04:32:33 PM »
The realy interesting this is that a lot of info has flooded west since the end of the cold war, and some of my books are from the 80's and earlyer, So their apears to be so interesting revalations coming forth. I beleave Cotobus was captured by the Russians and If the 190A-9 was produced thier and those planes went toward the east it is likely that those earler sources were not compleat in their finding's.  Heck we  may find that 100 Ta 154's were realy made and flown in the east some day(well I can dream huh:) ).

Offline Don

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2003, 10:02:21 PM »
>>The D-9 was an A-8 airframe with a more powerful engine and a smaller frontal area - quite obviously, it had to be superior in everything. <<

Ho-Hun:

The D-9 was referred to as the "Longnose" by allied pilits. It's nose , or frontal area, was longer due to the engine it used.
It was also designed for hi alt work versus allied buffs and fighters.  It was extremely fast but, not as manueverable versus the allied P-51's, P-47's and Spitfires which it met in combat.

Offline Don

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2003, 10:15:14 PM »
>>I think it was decided partly to do with a lack of engines but more likely because performance wasnt what was hoped for or expected<<


Hazed:

Of greater importance here is the frame of mind of the Germans. The Nazis were frantic to come up with a suitable counter to the P-51, which was able to escort allied buffs to the heart of Germany and back. The P-51 was THE plane to beat and/or deal with at the time.
It came as a shock to them, and they were losing many a/c and fighter experten with every allied raid over the German homeland.  
They developed the A-8 as a Ram fighter and, used 109s a hi cover for them as they got in position to hit the american B17s.
But it was slow and less manueverable because of the hvy armor required; including armaments.
Again, a lot of desperate experimentation was going on, to stem the flow of the allied bomber attacks.  And the german people were getting fed up with the Nazis for seemingly allowing it to happen. I am not surprised (no matter how obscure) about the A-9 varient; there were many such "experiments" developed at the time.

Offline hazed-

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2003, 11:25:23 PM »
I am aware of the many experiments and have many books (some 50 WW2 books in total ;)) about them but if you are suggesting the 190A-9 was designed to counter the P51(?) im pretty sure youre mistaken in that assumption if this is what you mean. They produced the 190D-9 after all and this has no armoured wing leading edge or option to include 30mm in the outer wings.I think this was more tailored to anti-fighter role along with the 109g10 etc.

190a9 with armoured wing leading edges and 30mm cannon replacing 20mms  points clearly to an anti-bomber role (or possibly jabo) plus its always mentioned as a ramming aircraft.Its the same mindset that developed the 190a8 R7 'sturm' with its extra armour and heavier caliber weapons.With this in mind you have to think, if like was said the 190a-9 is so much better than the 190a8 in the anti-bomber role or the 190D-9 or 109 etc in the anti-fighter role why send them all to the eastern front (if indeed they ever were)? wouldnt they use them on the western allies? wouldnt they build and use 190a-9s instead of 190a8s and d9s  on your (so called) instrumental P51? ;) If it was better, like i said before, only a lack of 801F/TS engines would have stopped their production as airframes they would have just converted from older models(a common practice).

As for the p51 if you have read Adolf Gallands 'the first and the last' or Heinz Knocks 'I flew for the fuhrer' you would see that the sheer number of enemy aircraft was the biggest problem, not a single type. Sure the P51 was instrumental in increasing survival rates on deep bomber penetrations and Galland mentions it was a good fighter AMONG OTHERS :) but much like the spitfire in the Battle of Britain it did not win the war alone. Im sure theres plenty of P47/Spitfire/tempest/typhoon/p38 etc etc pilots that would agree with this. ;)

From what ive read about JG301 in the link those so called 190A-9s could well have been 190a8s with a hood conversion.Without some way to prove the DB801F/TS was installed too you cant rely on a story with a mere mention of A9 in it. They probably were 190a-9s but I'd like to see some records or evidence of some sort first.Going back to the weight issue one thing ill always remember is Zemke on a tv interveiw saying if you add 10lbs of weight to a fighter you need 100hp added to make up for it, because of this he prefered the earlier lighter p47s. so if hes right and whos gonna say he isnt? and the 190 went from 1750hp(190a8) to 2000hp(190a9) but then added weight of armour to the wings the chances are it wasnt a huge improvement.(that and the fact we havent heard much about the a9 in the west)

see why i think the way i do? sort of makes sense right?

I think the 190D# were by far the best of the 190s in terms of performance and because it was so good it has been remembered that way. As much as i love the idea of an even better 190 varient that we somehow missed Im struggling to beleive the hype here.

hazed
« Last Edit: March 02, 2003, 11:45:37 PM by hazed- »

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2003, 11:30:40 PM »
The A9 wasnt some up armored ramming plane. It was an A8 with a new engine, new prop, 14 blade vs 12 blade cooling fan, and a standard blown canopy.

Offline wulfie

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2003, 11:46:10 PM »
Everything I've read, and heard (from interviews - we got to interview a LW pilot with decent Fw 190D-9 time for SSIs 'LW Commander' - yeah the game sucked but some of the interviews were really interesting) stated that the Fw 190D-9 was superior in handling to the Fw 190A-8, etc.

Too many guys in WB treated the D-9 like a 'really fast Fw 190A'. That's not the case. I've never had a problem getting a tracking gun solution on a Fw 190A, in WB or in AH, when I was in a Fw 190D-9.

No gun weight in the wings, more power, far, far less frontal area (about 1/10 of 1 square foot more effective frontal area than a P-51D), etc.

From:

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190d.html#RTFToC1

"At first, Luftwaffe pilots were somewhat suspicious of their new fighter, since the Jumo 213 was thought to be only a "bomber" engine. However, it soon became apparent that they had a winner on their hands. The "Dora" could out-climb and out-dive its BMW 801-powered predecessor with ease, and it possessed an excellent turning rate at speed. An experienced pilot could pull a tighter turn in a D-9 than he could with the BMW-powered FW-190A. The general opinion of the pilots who flew the FW 190D-9 was that it was the finest propeller-driven fighter available to the Luftwaffe during the entire war. In fact, many of its pilots considered it more than a match for the redoubtable P-51D Mustang."

(Note the comment about how an 'experienced' pilot could out turn a Fw 190A in a Fw 190D...much like the P-47, P-51, etc. of AH - an experienced stick can get more alot more out of certain aircraft...also plays into my comment about people flying/treating/thinking of the Fw 190D as a 'Fw 190A with more HP, 2 cannon, and better high altitude performace', as opposed to an entirely different aircraft).

I don't know where some would get the idea that the Fw 190D-9 wasn't more agile than most of it's opponents.

It had noticably better power to weight ratio than the P-51D at all altitudes (look at the power curve vs. altitude for the P-51D's engine, then look at the engine for the Fw 190D-9, boosted and unboosted, to see what I mean), which more than made up for the 10% wing area advantage the P-51D had. A laminar flow wing like that on the P-51D is great for speed, much less efficient than a normal wing (in terms of energy retention) in medium-high AoA situations.

It had better power to weight and wing loading when compared to the P-47 (any 'C' or 'D' model, I don't know the #s on the post 'D' models very well) - the P-47 was a great aircraft no doubt. It was also heavy as my sch-, well, you get the idea I think. :)

The Spitfire XIV could out sustained turn it. People seem to forget that that higher wing loading often means better instantaneous turn (which is likely why the P-47 was more feared by LW pilots than the P-51...great diving speed, great performance at altitude, great inst. turn, 8 x .50 BMG to use on the deflection shots the inst. turn gave the P-47, etc.).

I was ME/AE in college. Back in the WB days I 'built' NACA 'simulation models' of most of these aircraft. The Fw 190D-9 is one of the most underrated/misunderstood aircraft of WW2.

DISCLAIMER: I am biased. The Fw 190D-9 has been my favorite aircraft since age 4 or so. Don't forget this means that I've spent more time learning about it than most.

Mike/wulfie

(edit: clarified that P-47/Fw 190D-9 comparison applied to 'C' and 'D' P-47s)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2003, 11:50:05 PM by wulfie »

Offline hazed-

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2003, 11:49:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The A9 wasnt some up armored ramming plane. It was an A8 with a new engine, new prop, 14 blade vs 12 blade cooling fan, and a standard blown canopy.


So why has it been listed in every book i have as having armoured wing leading edges? please post your reference Grunherz.Damn i really hope youre right as ive always wanted a faster 190a8 :) only problem is ive never seen a spec for the 190a-9 that doesnt mention the armoured wings.

that includes a book i have quoted in here that was published in 2002.

Offline wulfie

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Fw 190A-9 data
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2003, 11:51:51 PM »
From:

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190.html#RTFToC11

"FOCKE-WULF 190 A-9
Next and last production series of the A version aircraft was the Fw 190A-9. Previously, it was thought this plane would have been powered by a 1765 kW (2400 hp) BMW 801 F engine. But the BMW factory had not started production of these engines in time and, as a replacement, the 1470 kW (2000 hp) BMW 801 S engine was used with a more efficient, 14 blade fan. These engines were delivered as a power unit BMW 801 TS because of their need for a more efficient radiator and bigger oil tank mounted side by side. Both were in the form of a ring ahead of the engine under an armor cover with thickness increased from 6 to 10 mm. Large area, three bladed wooden propeller with constant speed mechanism should have been used as a standard, but for unknown reasons the majority of the A-9 planes (as opposed to F-9) had the metal VDM 9-12176 A propellers, as used in the previous version. One difference in the airframe between A-9 and A-8 model was a larger cockpit canopy, adapted from the Fw 190F-8 version. A few planes got tail sections with an enlarged tail as provided for Ta 152 fighters. Armament and Rustsatz kits were the same as in the A-8 version, but in many cases, on the pilot's request external part of the wing mounted MG 151/20 E cannons were removed.
Production of the plane started in the end of autumn 1944 and continued parallel to A-8 version. Monthly output depended on limited deliveries of BMW 801 TS engines. Also developed was a project for a highly modified Fw 190A-10 fighter powered by a BMW 801 F engine, but it was not completed because of the end of the war."

Mike/wulfie

Offline wulfie

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2003, 11:52:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Is the engine an 801F?


Pongo, read the link I posted above to the A-9 data. It looks like the BMW 801F was 'used' on a prototype only.

Mike/wulfie

Offline wulfie

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2003, 11:57:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Don
It was extremely fast but, not as manueverable versus the allied P-51's, P-47's and Spitfires which it met in combat.


Dude crunch the numbers. Get an AE text and read about what/how wingloading, power/weight, etc. is.

The P-51 was great because it was fast (very fast for the comparitively low HP of it's engine) and had the range to fly all the way into Germany.

A Fw 190D could out maneuver a P-51D with ease. It had more power, was lighter, roughly the same frontal 'wet' area, etc.

But if you have 48 P-51Ds and 6 Fw 190D-9s... trouble for the bad guys.

Mike/wulfie

Offline hazed-

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2003, 12:01:33 AM »
thnx for link wulfie but its a little bit annoying that the page doesnt list its source. Do you know where it was copied from?

Offline wulfie

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2003, 12:11:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hazed-
thnx for link wulfie but its a little bit annoying that the page doesnt list its source. Do you know where it was copied from?


http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190di.html

Sources:
Warplanes of the Third Reich, William Green, Doubleday, 1971.
Famous Fighters of the Second World War, William Green, Doubleday 1967.
The Focke-Wulf 190--A Famous German Fighter, Heinz Nowarra, Harleyford, 1965.

You can also email him. He responds to emails fairly well.

Mike/wulfie
« Last Edit: March 03, 2003, 12:13:52 AM by wulfie »

Offline hazed-

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2003, 12:35:00 AM »
wulfie is this guy an amature historian? as in is he published? not being picky but this part of the write up got me remembering a kurt tank interveiw:

'RLM management was dominated by in-line water-cooled engines adherents, who did not share his vision of the new project'

and this is what kurt tank says in a 1975 interview quoted in a book called:
Focke wulfe fw190 in combat by alfred price isbn 0-7509-2548-5

'Some have suggested that i had to fight a battle with the German Air Ministry to get them to accept the idea of radial engined fighter.That might make a good story but it is not history.In fact there was quite a large body of official opinion in favour of such a fighter for the Luftwaffe.'

A lot of older books say this kind of thing, makes you wonder if they are correct in their information.
also the newer books dont seem to mention the 190a-9 as being in production and id really like to know who is right. Damn annoying isnt it! who knows maybe the 190a9 was produced in great numbers without this armoured wing leading edge but it makes you wonder why it isnt in all the books.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2003, 12:37:13 AM by hazed- »

Offline HoHun

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Fw 190A-9
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2003, 01:32:41 AM »
Hi Don,

>The D-9 was referred to as the "Longnose" by allied pilits. It's nose , or frontal area, was longer due to the engine it used.

You're confusing lateral area and frontal area here. Lateral area forward of the centre of gravity was increased (and lateral moment even more, as the geometric centre of gravity moved forward), which was countered by the elongated fuselage and the larger rudder.

The frontal area was decreased.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)