Author Topic: Fw 190A-9 (Read 2056 times)

HoHun · « **Reply #30 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:00:49 AM »

Hi Hazed,

>From what ive read about JG301 in the link those so called 190A-9s could well have been 190a8s with a hood conversion.Without some way to prove the DB801F/TS was installed too you cant rely on a story with a mere mention of A9 in it.

A Focke-Wulf memorandum dated 20.10.1944 states on the production of Fw 190 Sturm aircraft:

"The power plant assembly BMW801TU resp. TS is to be used instead of the BMW801D whenever possible.

Reason: Strengthened armour for radiator and reservoirs."

(From Rodeike: Focke Wulf.)

The TU power plant assembly used an engine identical to the BMW801D. I'd say that all aircraft equipped with TU engine were designated A-8 and all with TS engine A-9. That's in line with Focke-Wulf practice with earlier versions being produced from the same airframe with different engines.

Reschke's "Jagdgeschwader JG301/302" lists quite a few A-9 losses (complete with Werknr.) from November 1944 on, so it's evident the type was produced and saw combat. They were designated R11, which includes the Sturmjäger-type 30 mm cannon installation as well as all-weather avionics.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

HoHun · « **Reply #31 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:53:04 AM »

Hi again,

Rodeike concludes that the production of Fw 190A-9 aircraft amounted to at least 910 examples produced by 5 different factories. (As Fieseler is not included, the list may not be complete.)

The aircraft of JG301 came from Focke-Wulf Cottbus, the second factory to commence production (in September 1944) and according to Rodeike mostly turning out A-9/R-11 variants. In fact, from the Werknrs. it seems that JG301 had received the complete initial batch of 90 A-9s for its re-equipment (along with aircraft from other batches.) They also had a few Fw 190A-8s, but the A-9 seems to have been predominant. (The first A-9 losses already occurred during conversion in October 1944.)

Production by Focke-Wulf Cottbus amounted to an average 160 A-9s per month, in addition to another 120 A-8s per month at the same factory (which seems to have consisted of three different plants).

However, just by quickly skimming the loss summary I already found 5 examples of Werknrs. listed by JG301 that are not on Rodeike's list, so it's quite probable that even more A-9s were produced than the 910 he points out.

(The first factory to produce the A-9 had been Mimetall at Erfurt, producing 80 aircraft in August/September 1944.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

wulfie · « **Reply #32 on:** March 03, 2003, 05:10:31 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by hazed-
wulfie is this guy an amature historian? as in is he published? not being picky but this part of the write up got me remembering a kurt tank interveiw:

'RLM management was dominated by in-line water-cooled engines adherents, who did not share his vision of the new project'

and this is what kurt tank says in a 1975 interview quoted in a book called:
Focke wulfe fw190 in combat by alfred price isbn 0-7509-2548-5

'Some have suggested that i had to fight a battle with the German Air Ministry to get them to accept the idea of radial engined fighter.That might make a good story but it is not history.In fact there was quite a large body of official opinion in favour of such a fighter for the Luftwaffe.'

A lot of older books say this kind of thing, makes you wonder if they are correct in their information.
also the newer books dont seem to mention the 190a-9 as being in production and id really like to know who is right. Damn annoying isnt it! who knows maybe the 190a9 was produced in great numbers without this armoured wing leading edge but it makes you wonder why it isnt in all the books.

I don't think he's 'published' per se. But he's very well respected. Read thru all his write-ups - he tries to provide sources, and usually goes into great detail.

Email the guy.

Mike/wulfie

MiloMorai · « **Reply #33 on:** March 03, 2003, 05:52:58 AM »

A slight problem since only goes to Dec. 1944 but this site list the a/c 'on strength' by LW units. The Fw190A-9 is listed.

http://www.ww2.dk/

here is the listing for II/JG301

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg301.html

fats · « **Reply #34 on:** March 03, 2003, 06:50:40 AM »

--- hazed-: ---
So why has it been listed in every book i have as having armoured wing leading edges?
--- end ---

The whole armored wing leading edge makes it sound as if the whole leading edge was armored. Somehow I suspect the armoring to be the same as with earlier sturmm planes which had armor around the 30mm ammo boxes.

// fats

Vermillion · « **Reply #35 on:** March 03, 2003, 07:57:21 AM »

910 A-9's ? I think I would have to be very very skeptical of that. That would mean there were as many A-9's as there were D-9's. Come on guys, your getting into some serious wishful thinking here.

Naudet · « **Reply #36 on:** March 03, 2003, 08:57:17 AM »

The number of FW190A9 produce lies somewhere in the 200 range.
But not all A9 did get the BMW801F, they introduced some small changes to the A8, but kept the BMW801D.

i.e. JG1 was completely equited with A9 at the end of the war.

Also in "Greenhearts - 1st in combat with the Dora" you can find a comparison flight of an A9 of JG1 and a D9 of JG54.
The D9 was slighly faster and turned slightly better.

Also noone should forget that according to FW documents the D9 was the fastest low-medium altittude fighter of the whole FW190-TA152 series.
The real high alt engine was the JUMO213E not the JUMO213A. But as the 213A had a better high alt performance than the BMW801 Series, it was used as an interims solution until the 213E was available in numbers.

D9 outperformed any late war A-Series (A-7,8,9) in all performance aspects. Earlier A-Series (A-2,3,4,5) might have had a better substained turn due to their relative low weight. But in all other categories (speed, climb, dive) they all fell short.
Even a TA152C or H was slower at altittudes up to 18k.

Edit: The problem with IL2:FB might be that they are still using 426mph (685km/H) as the topspeed with MW50, this is completely wrong and was proven time and time again. But the designers of IL2 showed no interest to look into other sources than their own.

HoHun · « **Reply #37 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:08:46 PM »

Hi Vermillion,

>910 A-9's ? I think I would have to be very very skeptical of that. That would mean there were as many A-9's as there were D-9's. Come on guys, your getting into some serious wishful thinking here.

Who's afraid of the big bad Wulf? :-)

Rodeike is a modern author who has done some serious research on the topic, probably going deeper into detail than anyone before. He's identified the Werknr. blocks associated with the Fw 190A-9 production quite clearly, and the JG301 loss reports from Reschke's book which I used to cross-check Rodeike's data indicate that they had their aircraft from several diferent blocks listed by Rodeike, occasionally even from blocks Rodeike didn't even list. If anything, I'd have to consider the number of 910 as too conservative judging from the data I have available.

With regard to wishful thinking: I don't think the A-9 was a particularly hot fighter in a 1945 context. I'd be more excited about a hundred D-11 aircraft than about a thousand A-9s :-)

>I think I would have to be very very skeptical of that.

Modern skepticism is based on the principles of rational analysis. That implies that you have a factual basis for your disbelief. Even William Green's "WW2 Aircraft" would be better than nothing - which is what you have now :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

HoHun · « **Reply #38 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:22:34 PM »

Hi Naudet,

>The number of FW190A9 produce lies somewhere in the 200 range.

What's your source?

>But not all A9 did get the BMW801F, they introduced some small changes to the A8, but kept the BMW801D.

Actually, no BMW801F was ever used in series production aircraft, instead they employed the BMW801S, a (slightly) less powerful stopgap engine losely based on the BMW801E (von Gerstorff et. al.).

>D9 outperformed any late war A-Series (A-7,8,9) in all performance aspects.

I agree absolutely :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

hazed- · « **Reply #39 on:** March 03, 2003, 04:48:12 PM »

great thread

Wulfie thnx for those names of authors,I have a few of williams greens works and ive often looked at some of those listed.After seeing it yet again i thought ahh to hell with it I'll just buy some!

Im looking forward to receiving 'Warplanes of the Third Reich' by william green in the next few days (one of the 3 references quoted).I even managed to get it for half the price i usually see it for which is great.The high price always put me off buying it but now i should get it cheap

First thing I'll be looking at is the 190a-9 i think

Also ordered some pretty seldom seen booklets by one of the authors in wulfies link's sources. These are 'Messerschmitt 109' and 'Russian Fighters 1920-41' by Heinz J. Nowarra. A couple of cheapies

if they seem competant references i may order the book mentioned in the link written by him which is very expensive even second hand.Must be a sought after book?.
From reveiws of Heinz Nowarras books it would seem they are a little outdated but still very good.A Norwegian reveiwer mentions several contradictions, and newer books which have a different veiw to that in his book but still recommends it.

Ho Hun I must admit it sounds like good news for any 190a-9 enthusiast

With this new material found maybe its time for a new book on the 190 varients?

seems if this material is correct peter Caygill has missed it in 2002 when he produced his combat legends book. Perhaps you should write one ho hun?

HoHun · « **Reply #40 on:** March 03, 2003, 05:50:45 PM »

Hi Hazed,

>These are 'Messerschmitt 109' and 'Russian Fighters 1920-41' by Heinz J. Nowarra. A couple of cheapies

My impression of Nowarra is that he has done only very sloppy research though he wrote a lot of books. There might be a few nuggets of good information in there, but they're buried beneath a heap of not-so-good information.

On the other hand, William Green's books are quite well researched considering their age! :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Naudet · « **Reply #41 on:** March 03, 2003, 06:07:45 PM »

HoHun, have the production numbers from Driehl/Gressel, they have a part containing Werknummer-Blocks etc. (Seite 87ff).

MiloMorai · « **Reply #42 on:** March 03, 2003, 07:44:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by HoHun
On the other hand, William Green's books are quite well researched considering their age! :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Was it not Green who started the myth of MG151s in the cowl of the Bf109K-4? One must also watch Green's books just like Nowarra's but not as carefully.

AGJV44_Rot 1 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 03, 2003, 07:47:21 PM »

Naudet you just answered one of my questions I jsut posted about one of his books and I was thinking of buying on the 190/152. SO they are no good?

hazed- · « **Reply #44 on:** March 05, 2003, 09:38:50 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by hazed-
Im looking forward to receiving 'Warplanes of the Third Reich' by william green in the next few days .I even managed to get it for half the price i usually see it for which is great.The high price always put me off buying it but now i should get it cheap

First thing I'll be looking at is the 190a-9 i think

Ok recieved 'Warplanes of the third reich' by william green, basically 672 pages packed with info.Its gonna take quite some time to plow though all this info but let me first give you what william green says in here about the 190A-9.......

'The prolific A-series was intended to continue with the Fw190A-9, initially conceived as a rammjager with heavily armoured wing leading edges and a BMW 801F engine (similar in general construction to the BMW801D-2 but having different super-charger gear ratios and offering 2,000hp for take-off and emergency), but this failed to procedd further than the prototype stage (Fw190 V34 Werk Nr 41 0230), and the BMW 801F in this aircraft was eventually supplanted by a BMW 801TS which featured an improved and simplified master control, and an exhaust-driven super-charger.For some inexplicable reason, the A-series sub-type numbers were continued by the D series fighters, the first production version of which accordingly became the Fw190D-9 as development of the fw190A-9 had been abandoned.'

as you can see in this book it totally agrees with the latest 'combat legends:Fw190' book by peter caygill. Seems one of the other 2 books in the sources must have the 190a-9 info on that web page? or do you think just maybe he has found a single source that claims they were built?

Im of the opinion that the internet is full of information which is highly dubious in nature.From so called pilot stories to info on aircraft, theres a lot of made up stuff out there. Perhaps one of the 3 sources does mention many 190a-9s being built but every book ive ever bought, including now one of this guys quoted sources says different.

Also where is this so called russian source that gives production numbers in the hundreds? Is it an original document? Have IL2 got it? or as i suspect is it something produced by a rather clever internet forger? Until I see the original or at least a decent copy of it I'll stick with what i read in the books.At least theres some chance that these authors are controlled by the publishers and might be more truthfull.

shame really.