engine managment...simple solution ?

[Tomb]

given that the jaded ones want a bit more along the engine managment side and the game must be simple enough for new guys to play

lets consider the engine controls

fuel

quite simple the main tank is "on" by default

other selections are whatever other tanks are availble and "off" if you have an engine fire or about to ditch and wish to avoid a fire.

throttle control

this will affect "manifold presure" this will show how much power your engine is developing and perhaps have a throttle percent digital displayed near it

prop control

a simple two position switch with

"combat" and "cruise"...default is combat

this will affect the "RPM" and would have two typical settings of 3000rpm and 1800rpm with 3000rpm being combat and 1800rpm being cruise

mixture

another two postion switch marked "lean" and "rich" default is "rich"

rich would give full power while lean would give a power reduction plus a fuel saving so manifold presure would drop several inches

it should tecnically be called auto rich and auto lean...we are only interested in using it for its primary purpose of saving fuel..not adjusting the mixture for hieght because on many engines this was automatic anyway running high power on a lean set mixture will over heat it..especally with the prop set to cruise

cooling

a three postion switch marked "open", "shut" and "auto"
with an indicator marked "open" or "shut"
default is "auto"

in the "auto" setting as soon as the engine exceeds a certain temperature then the indicator light changes from "shut" to "open"
and a speed loss ocurrs due to extra drag

the pilot has the option of closing the cooling mechanism by selecting "shut" and the indicator follows suit by displaying "shut"...the engine temperature will now rise and will gain the pilot a little more speed (less drag) but at some point he will have to select "auto" or "open" to save his engine.

another option is to accept more drag by leaving the setting on "open" and take a cooler engine temperature for perhaps a little extra "sprint" time IE full power with the coolers "shut"

lets view this from two players...the "expert" and the "novice"

two plane take off expert leading novice

both look at enging gauges RPM and MP at idle settings on start the prop switch is on combat, fuel on main, mixture rich and coolers on auto and indicating shut

its a squad night so a bit of time to form up so our expert selects "open" on his coolers and our novice does nothing.

formed up they both open the throttle RPM and MP rise at some point around a third throttle RPM hits 3000 and stops MP keeps rising and then hits the full power setting

they are both rolling..take ..off ease in to the climb..temp rises in both planes but because the expert has is coolers open his temperature does not rise that much but our novice is far too excited to notice anything and his higher than normal engine temp so does not see his "auto" setting open the coolers and his indicator changes from "shut" to "open"

they both settle down to the cruise and the expert pulls of some power..the novice does the same...both still indicate 3000rpm but a lesser MP presure..our novice has noticed this gauge moves with the throttle

the expert now selects from combat to cruise on his prop control and his rpm drops to 1800 rpm the novice does nothing our expert is now using less fuel he now selects lean on the mixture control and his MP drops a bit so he pushes his power up to maintain his MP setting which means he is still using less fuel than our novice on the same setting

our expert notices his engine is a bit cool so selects "auto" on his coolers and the indicator chanes from open to shut.

(shut does not mean no air flow but i am making the assumtion that during low load settings such as during cruise would mean extra cooling air is not needed but during high power low speed such as taxi and climbout it is..also high power settings for long periods of time such as full power and where an open setting would be needed to keep the engine cool enough)

so our expert has had a good immersive fiddle and is saving a bit of fuel over our novice who has done nothing expcept fly


they are bounced so the novice rams full throttle on and rockets away from our expert who does the same but due to a cruise prop setting does not have the acceleration and due to a lean mixture setting does not develop full power so he selects combat on his prop control and rich on his mixture control and sets off in hot pursuit of his wingie...perhaps our expert could keeps his coolers manually selected to shut to gain a little extra speed and seperation....he has certainly saved fuel...

so what of the experiance for both

our expert has his engine managment and immersion

our novice has his immersion and did not have to touch anything but the throttle

where it would tell would be at the limits of range or perhaps a slight increase in performance for our expert...in fact due to the general misunderstanding and incorrect engine modeling of games in the past our expert may well drop himself in it due to preconcieved and incorrect assumptions learned from them...

from games that model this that ive played in the past it all becomes second nature quite quickly and i dont think a novice would suffer from a system as ive decribed above...he may even gain and the expert would have an admitally simplified but immersive engine management system...but the major factors would be represented

thoughts ?

Tomb

[-blk--]

  I like it!  

  But there's one thing that gets me.  Leaning the mixture gives you more power generally.  It's SOP in pretty much everything to lean the mixture during the runup whenever you're above 3,000 feet or so.  Here in NM (density altitudes around 8400), I gain about 200 rpm just by leaning the mixture (which equates to maybe 10 HP or so).

  The reason that the MAP would have to be less when using the proposed "lean" setting (Autolean), is that whent he mixture is leaned out, the engine is closer to detonation, and at high MAP settings, the engine would likely detonate.  So, if the engine were set to "Rich," you could safely push the MAP to higher limits without the fear of detonation.

  But, the concept is right on.  I'd really like to see this one implemented.

-blk--  <JG5>

[Sascha JG 77]

hmm...sounds rather complicated for an online sim targeted at the average PC-flyer to me.
This ain t MS flightsimulator you know  

I don t think a lot of people would want to dig through a 300 page manual before being able to FLY. They d prolly have their hands full fighting the enemy, why would they want to "fight" their own plane?
If this sort of thing were to be included you d definetly need an option to disable it as well (suffering penalties of course)
Personally I d love to see an advanced engine management model.

Sascha

[bod]

This would be cool.

With regard to mixture. Another problem is that by leaning the engine it would also run at a much higher temperature (EGT). An engine will not operate very long with max throttle and rpm with "maximum" lean before it would overheat. Full rich will cause the engine to run with much more fuel than it needs for the combustion. It will not run optimal, but the chance of overheating is almost zero, simply because the excess fuel cools it down.


Bod

[7Cav]

Nice Ideas!

It's great to see that people are thinking of possable solutions that would make the online sim more immersive, but not too demanding for a new player. I hope your post here gets at least a second thought by the AH team. Perhaps this might spark something as good from their perspective.

Keep up the ideas, and brainstorming! Ideas like these are how things get incorporated.

[Sharky]

Hey Tomb,

Sounds like a good idea if the object is just to give the pilot the added emersion <sp> factor.  I too want all the controls possible on everything from engines to guns and control surface settings but I want them to give me an advantage if used properly, over the guy that that just selects "auto" and rams the throttle to 61".

 A lot of people are saying if all these features are added (which they aren't going to be so all this discussion is really moot) and require you to use them to get the maximum performance from your plane then the new guys will find it too hard.  My view is "so what".  When I started playing WB I found there was a huge learning curve and I spent hundreds, yes hundreds of dollars learning the things I needed to learn to fight and win.  I spent many hours with trainers and flying with the guys that were recognised experts to learn what they did to win, I read flet's series of lectures on ACM so many times I can damn near recite them vebatium.

Once I asked HT online (I think it was you HT, if not sorry) when they started the RPS, "Why the RPS? No one likes to fly the early planes. (that was my oppion at the time I learned differant later) Why force people to fly them?  His reply was "We are trying to build the BEST sim possible, not one that everyone will like".  If that isn't an exact quote it's pretty damn close.

If the features of this sim won't give the person that takes the time to learn to use them correctly any advantage in a fight then why included them?  Mind candy perhaps?  Naw, use the resources to add new planes and maps and scenerios etc that we can use.

Sorry for the long post, but I've watched this discussion for awhile and wanted to at least give a plug for "make it as real/difficult as possible" and reward me for learning the new things.  I learned to fly in WB and I'm a pretty good pilot when I force myself to fly smart.  Please teach me/show me something new.

Sharky Out

[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 08-04-1999).]

[Bad Omen]

Tomb:

I like it and think it would work. And I think it would give the person who learns to use it a slight advantage, in range, performance(keeping your cooling flaps in for max performance when otherwise they wouldn't be), and prepping for combat by keeping your engine a little cooler so you can go higher performance that much longer. Yet, the newbie will not be taxed much at all as he could learn how to fly without learning all the engine stuff up front. And while the 'expert' might pick up an advantage, on the flip side, he can be hurt by it if he doesn't keep up his SA and have his plane ready for combat when he is bounced, just like it could happen in real combat. I believe that has enough of a balance to work.
Good job!
Now we add fuel tank controls and weapons arming switches and we got something here!;-)

[Brazos]

Outstanding post Tomb!

Dale, I hope your crew considers this idea. It's a elegant next step in the evolution of combat sims. A no brainer for newbies, and good sticks will have more control over their fuel state and engine temps. Is it worth it in terms of programming time to code and test? Imo, a resounding YES! When you brought manual trim controls to online sims, it gave the pilot more control over the plane, and WBs the distinction of being the "serious sim." Please take this step forward. We're here to have fun, but serious fun! And boy does this sound fun.
 

[Jinx]

Tomb,
Thank you! This is exactly what I have been trying to push for.

I would like to see a one more option for Prop pitch; Hi RPM - Normal - Low RPM. But Im not picky, you options would work well enough.  
 
Hi RPM would be used for takeoff and climbing at low speed, Low RPM for cruising.

The mixture setting "Idle cutoff" is only used for starting and stopping the engine and I guess we could do without it, there also usually was a full rich setting for when the automation failed.

    -Jinx

[-blk--]

  I'm agreeing even more here!  (than I did before)

  This would add a good deal of immersion to the game, while allowing new players to learn without the added complication of managing an engine.

  I really don't think it's too hard to learn how to use these controls BTW.  When I stepped up to high performance/complex aircraft in RealLife(tm), I thought it would be a big change.  Actually, it was a no-brainer.  I was actually dissappointed when I found out how simple it was (kinda like DME arcs...).

  Anyway...if the only obstacle is the learning curve for these controls, I'll volunteer to teach anyone who needs to learn...

-blk--  <JG5>

[-bmbm-]

Excellent idea Tomb. It wouldn't markedly affect the novice's performance in combat (after all, he's going to pull too many G's and auger well before his fuel is out or engine overheats <g> ) and adds just the right amount of immersive work for the veteran. The big plus is that one might make still more easy bounces on the engine managers  

And if you're a vet and don't feel like fiddling with the controls, just push right ahead in auto mode :-)

Now, how to simulate them handcranked undercarriages... took 20-30 seconds of hard labor to pull em up, during which your SA would be severely curtailed... I gather the Ratas and the F4F's, among others (?) had them ;-)

------------------
-bmbm-, XO 56th FG

[leonid]

Tomb,

Gotta hand it to you - your idea has merit.  Now it's a matter of seeing if there's time and resources to develop and implement it.  But it's a good idea.  Well done.

[Strider]

Interesting thoughts here. And for a guy who has flown AW almost exclusively I kinda am looking for a sim which will be a bit more challenging and yes, "realistic" than the average "granfather of all Fighter Sims".
I don't see anything wrong with making the more "complicated aspects" of AH and trim and fuel mixtures, more user friendly. Hell, for me, it will already have been more than I am accustomed to  Good ideas all

[funked]

WB has easy mode for those who can't/won't hack the more realistic physics.  Why not have an easy mode for those who can't/won't hack the more realistic engine?

[zuni]

Responding in support of Tomb's ideas to increase the immersion factor. Thanks for taking the time to think about it and write it up Tomb.

Your ideas appear to be a balanced and workable solution, and we know such things have to at least cover that base to get anywhere.

Let's hope the AH team will eventually satisfy us with an AH update that contains this stuff, if not in the initial release.

Zuni