I do not agree on all points, but.....

[blitz]

Originally posted by Saurdaukar
You mean like Japan threatened to do?  Maybe they missed the missle that PRNK shot into the ocean last week.

Just as Iraq is now aware that UN threats dont mean anything, SK is testing the waters (no pun intended) and is discovering the same thing.

Keep putting flowers in your hair, but please promise not to breed.

Waitin for Toad to answer but nevertheless i want to give ya an answer saurdaukar.

I'm no pacifist, wasn't and doubt i won't be but i'm slow, very slow when it goes to war.


Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain rediculous

[Toad]

1. OK, so if NK attacks SK, you would support military action by the UN.

2. We have been one of the largest food donors to NK since at least 1997, perhaps before. It's a step we took a LONG time ago. It's no "new" step.

NK hasn't been "chased into a corner". They ran headfirst into it and are still banging their heads against the wall. They built the world's 4th largest land army while allowing their agriculture to fail and the people to starve. Only they can take the blame for that.

 They are in no way threatened by the "coming war in Iraq". Fer pity's sake, they're half a world away. As far as US/SK "war games", they've been going on every year for about the last 50 years. One would think they'd realize that is no threat either.

3. So, if there is evidence that they are selling nukes to known terrorists, you'll be in favor of war against them. Thaks.

4. You still failed to answer concerning what you think the Security Council should do about the NK violation of their nuclear non-proliferation obligations as reported to the Security Council by the IAEA. Mr El Baradei has reported these violations to the SC. It is not a US dilemma, it is a Security Council problem

So what should be done? NK is perhaps a few months away from production of nuclear weapons. What is your opinion?

Or did you just say your opinion is that NK should be allowed to develop nukes for it's own defense? Which would be in conflict, of course with the IAEA opinion and the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

So, if you are for that, are you for the total abandonment of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty that the IAEA works to enforce?

Why would America apologize to Vietnam? The government of South Vietnam requested US assistance and SEATO sanctioned the U.S. military effort in Vietnam. Many of the SEATO countries also sent troops. We should apologize for honoring the government of South Vietnam's request?

Let me ask you a Vietnam question: Should Vietnam apologize to Cambodia for invading and conducting a war against Cambodia? Should Vietnam apologize to Laos for occupying that country and maintaning 60,000 troops there?

[blitz]

Originally posted by Toad
1. OK, so if NK attacks SK, you would support military action by the UN.

2. We have been one of the largest food donors to NK since at least 1997, perhaps before. It's a step we took a LONG time ago. It's no "new" step.

Never said so but it's the right way

NK hasn't been "chased into a corner". They ran headfirst into it and are still banging their heads against the wall. They built the world's 4th largest land army while allowing their agriculture to fail and the people to starve. Only they can take the blame for that.

 They are in no way threatened by the "coming war in Iraq". Fer pity's sake, they're half a world away. As far as US/SK "war games", they've been going on every year for about the last 50 years. One would think they'd realize that is no threat either.
[/B]

They ARE chased into a corner by USA politics and threatened with war. With Bushs 60 countries list of evil nations that should be dealt with , one bye one.

3. So, if there is evidence that they are selling nukes to known terrorists, you'll be in favor of war against them. Thaks.

4. You still failed to answer concerning what you think the Security Council should do about the NK violation of their nuclear non-proliferation obligations as reported to the Security Council by the IAEA. Mr El Baradei has reported these violations to the SC. It is not a US dilemma, it is a Security Council problem

So what should be done? NK is perhaps a few months away from production of nuclear weapons. What is your opinion?

Or did you just say your opinion is that NK should be allowed to develop nukes for it's own defense? Which would be in conflict, of course with the IAEA opinion and the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.[/B]

We should try to hinder them developp nuclear weapons but definately not with a war.

So, if you are for that, are you for the total abandonment of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty that the IAEA works to enforce?
[/B]

No, we should stay with that and countries like yours , armed to the teeth should not allways developp new WMDs.

Why would America apologize to Vietnam? The government of South Vietnam requested US assistance and SEATO sanctioned the U.S. military effort in Vietnam. Many of the SEATO countries also sent troops. We should apologize for honoring the government of South Vietnam's request? [/B]

Sometime you'll learn that double language don't fit for a country which wants to be known in the world as the one with the highest moral standards.

Regards Blitz



America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain

[Toad]

Originally posted by blitz
They ARE chased into a corner by USA politics and threatened with war. With Bushs 60 countries list of evil nations that should be dealt with , one bye one.

[/b]

Get real Blitz. Let's see some examples here.

The US has not pressured NK into anything. We haven't changed the number of troops serving on the DMZ under the UN banner except to continually reduce them over the last 50 years.

WE were the ones that got an "Agreed Framework" with them where they agreed to stop develpoing nukes in return for multiple nations building them light water reactors and giving them fuel oil. THEY admit they violated that agreement by almost immediately starting an enriched uranium program.

The US is and HAS BEEN one of their largest food donors.

Yeah, Bush called Kim Jong Il "evil". What do YOU call a guy that has impoverished his own citizens, killed them by the hundreds of thousands in prison camps, starved them and built the world's 4th largest land army? Any sane person can see that there's not a single thing in NK that any other nation would covet....... nothing...... so how are they "threatened"?

Examples please.


 

Originally posted by blitz
We should try to hinder them developp nuclear weapons but definately not with a war.

[/b]


That's a lovely, lovely, meaningless sentiment.

MOHAMED ELBARADEI, head of the IAEA was on PBS and said (in part):

Well, Ray, what we are asking North Korea to do today is come into full compliance with their nonproliferation obligations, and specifically allow us to go back to North Korea, allow our inspectors to be back to oversee the nuclear facilities in North Korea, allow us to clarify the undeclared enrichment program, allow us to verify that we have seen all the plutonium they have produced; so, in sum, come clean insofar as their nonproliferation obligation, make us confident that they have declared all the nuclear materials they have and they are using it for peaceful purposes.

The message is clear to them: if they do that, Ray, the international community is ready to cooperate with them. If they continue this policy of defiance, then there is no deal, then nobody is willing to negotiate with them under duress or under nuclear brinksmanship.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, what happens if they either ignore you or outright refuse, does the IAEA have any enforcement power?

MOHAMED ELBARADEI:

Well, Ray, what we are asking North Korea to do today is come into full compliance with their nonproliferation obligations, and specifically allow us to go back to North Korea, allow our inspectors to be back to oversee the nuclear facilities in North Korea, allow us to clarify the undeclared enrichment program, allow us to verify that we have seen all the plutonium they have produced; so, in sum, come clean insofar as their nonproliferation obligation, make us confident that they have declared all the nuclear materials they have and they are using it for peaceful purposes.

The message is clear to them: if they do that, Ray, the international community is ready to cooperate with them. If they continue this policy of defiance, then there is no deal, then nobody is willing to negotiate with them under duress or under nuclear brinksmanship...

Well, the enforcement power lies with the Security Council. I think under our charter if North Korea or any other country were to be judged in noncompliance with its nonproliferation obligation, then we are bound to report to the Security Council and then the whole question goes to the Security Council, and it is then up to the Security Council to decide what would be the next step.

So, Blitz, just HOW do you want the Security Council to achieve that without use of force? Because NK has already said the will consider the use of ANY sanctions against them as an act of war.

So, how do you "hinder" them? I'd like an example, because I can't think of one.




 

Originally posted by blitz
No, we should stay with that and countries like yours , armed to the teeth should not allways developp new WMDs.

[/b]

Can you show me a link to any evidence that we are developing new WMD's? AFAIK, we're reducing the number of WMD that we have. Got rid of all the artillery fired tactical nukes, for example. And that's just one example. So it sounds to me like you are just parroting some line you heard here, without anything to back it up.



 

Originally posted by blitz
Sometime you'll learn that double language don't fit for a country which wants to be known in the world as the one with the highest moral standards.

[/b]


Double language?

Tell me again why you think we should apologize. Give me a reason.

And you didn't answer my question about those fine freedom fighting Vietnamese invading Cambodia and occupying Laos. What about an apology there?

[straffo]

And you didn't answer my question about those fine freedom fighting Vietnamese invading Cambodia

You never heard of POL POT ????????????????

[Cobra]

Did Pol Pot invade Vietnam?

That's a serious question, because I don't know if he did or not.

Cobra

[straffo]

No POL POT didn't invade Vietnam

It was just to show to Toad that when the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia they were really "freedom fighter"

At least for the Cambodgian people ...

POL POT has the best "kill ratio" of any mass murderer of the past century ...
Even if he didn't murdered as many people as Hitler or Stalin if you look at the population of Cambodia before and after his reign ... it's terrible

[Toad]

Pol Pot, who become responsible for the deaths of over two million of his own people, was born Saloth Sar in a small Cambodian village about 140 kilometers north of Phnom Penh. His date of birth is uncertain although French records give it as May 25, 1928. At age six he went to live with his brother at the Royal household in Phnom Penh. Here he learned Buddhist precepts and discipline. At age eight he went to a Catholic primary school, where he remained for six years. It was here that he picked up the basics of Western culture, as well as the French language.

In 1949, Pol Pot went to study in Paris on a government scholarship. It was here that he got his introduction to Communism, joining the French Communist Party. After four years of exposure to Stalinist Communism he returned to Cambodia in 1953. Within a month he had joined the Communist resistance, becoming a member of the Indochina Communist Party (IHC) which was dominated by the Viet Minh.


The 1954 Cambodian elections saw the Communists throw in support with the Democrats. The Democrats were soundly defeated, however, by the incumbent Government of Prince Sihanouk who now held absolute power. Pol Pot now took up a post as a teacher in a private college. He also spent his time recruiting the educated classes to the Communist cause. The Government, however, began a Communist crackdown and Pol Pot was forced to flee to the Jungles near the Vietnam border to avoid arrest. For the next seven years he would spend his time in the Cambodian jungle hiding from the police.


Over the ensuing years the communists bided their time as they built up their strength for a take-over attempt. They were bolstered by the North Vietnamese who were waging warfare against the Cambodian Government. A major Vietnamese victory in 1971 allowed the Communists to take control of certain areas of the country. In 1973 the communists launched a major attack on the Government but this was halted by American bombing. A final Communist assault began on January 1, 1975. This time they were victorious. On April 17, Communist forces entered Phnom Penh. Within 24 hours they had ordered the entire city evacuated. This process was repeated in other cities resulting in more than 2 million Cambodians being forced out of their homes. Many of them starved to death.

 

Pol Pot was now Prime Minister of Cambodia, which he promptly renamed Kampuchea. In August, 1976 he unveiled his Four Year Plan, which detailed the collectivisation of agriculture, the nationalization of industry and the financing of the economy through increased agricultural exports. This plan caused untold misery to the nation with many thousands dying in the paddy fields. Crops needed to feed the population were marked for export. Malnutrition was rampant, made worse by the Communist insistence on traditional Cambodian medicine. Pol Pot also started the infamous S-21 interrogation center where more than 20,000 men, women and children were tortured to death.

So, where would an unbiased review place the responsibility for Pol Pot's rise to power? What "enabled" him to be in a position where he could slaughter his fellow countrymen?

Something else for the Vietnamese to apologize for?

[Toad]

And still waiting for Blitz to enlighten me with respect to his position on North Korea and the IAEA/UN Security Council. And how the US is forcing NK into a war.

Thanks.

[straffo]

I was thinking of the 1979 intervention.
Not at the origin of PP reign.

[Toad]

Can there be one without the other?

[straffo]

in fact no

But I was a bit blinded and focalised on only this part of the story

[Toad]

Straffo. It's not often one sees that on this board. I appreciate the post.

[Monk]

Pol-Pot......isn't that the stuff that smells good.
........ahh, maybe not;)

........na, thats Potpourri, silly me.

[StSanta]

Th US hands are a bit tied military.

If they were to bomb the reactor, NK would prolly invade SK.

Eventually through massive US intervention, they'd be driven back.

At the cost of thousands of US soldiers.

Bush knows this.