Nice 20/20 about our glorious airforce

[Kanth]

now yer just getting silly.

Originally posted by lazs2
iron... there might be a few but... not ones who know me.   I have allways treated women fairly well.    I don't treat them equally since that would be rediculous and unfair to both of us.

  And since I am so rarely wrong about anything....  It would obviously be good for the country too.   What more proof does anyone need?
lazs

[Kanth]

to be honest lazs, I don't think I would have the patience for you in person. Fighting thru a bunch of beliefs that have nothing to do with who *I* am in particular in public is something I get to do on a daily basis so it definately doesn't appeal to me in private.

Originally posted by lazs2
kanth.. if either you or iron are ever in my area... email me and we will hook up.   I am an equal opportunity bonder.
lazs

[Mini D]

Originally posted by mjolnir
So I went and read this, since I missed the show.  Many of you know that I just graduated from USAFA last May.  And honestly, I have to say this is the biggist pile of horse dung I've ever seen.  

The Academy is a pretty close knit place.  There are only 4,000 cadets, as opposed to big universities with 40,000 students.  I'm not saying you get to know everybody, but when there are only 2 dorm buildings for all 4000 cadets (and you're assigned to a squadron of around 100-120 people, you switch squadrons part way through your time there, so that doubles the number of people that you're required to know at a minimum), you get to know a pretty healthy majority of the people.  With that said, I never heard of anything like this.  I was just your average Joe Blow cadet, wasn't really affiliated with any specific group or clique (yes, there were plenty and they were quite distinct).  

The media is trying to make a lot more of this than what's really there, just like they did with the big drug scandal two years ago.  Go ask any other college in the country if they'd be happy having a drug ring on their campus that consisted of a whole whopping 13 people, and they'd say hell yes.  I'm not saying that rape is not a problem if it happens in small numbers, so don't try to misquote me there.  I'm just saying that the media likes to amplify everything when it's a service academy under the microscope.

If there were any legitimate rapes that took place, that's inexcusable.  The guys commiting them should be court martialed and sent on their merry way to Levinworth.  But I think the point has been made that PC roadkill has gotten so bad that some of these guys had no reason to think what they were doing could be considered rape, until the girl changed her mind a few days or weeks later.

But now, just to add some fuel to the fire, let's go through the list of things that these people were doing wrong according to the AFCWIs (Air Force Cadet Wing Instructions).

1.  Alcohol in the cadet area, especially in the dorms.  Completely prohibited no matter how old you are or what rank you hold.

2.  Sex in the dorms, consentual or not, also prohibited.  Both parties should be punished equally.

3.  Freshmen dealing with upperclassmen in anything other than a professional manner, and vice versa.  This is fraternization and is considered no different than officers having unprofessional relationships with enlisted.  It's wrong on both parties involved, even more so for the upperclassmen who know better.  I watched a guy who was about to cross commission into the Army and go into Ranger school lose his slot and get sent to Army intel because it came out that in his last couple of months before graduation he was dating a freshman girl.

Had these cadets been bothered to follow the rules that are in place (for good reason), this would be a non issue.  And I apply that to both the accusers and the accused.  If these girls think it's unfair that they get disciplinary hits for drinking and having sex in the dorms because they're claiming rape, they're delusional.  The rapist will be dealt with accordingly, but in the meantime, the girl still broke many regulations in the first place to lead to that situation.  None of these sound like they were spontaneous "grab a total stranger and drag them into a dark alley" kind of rapes.  And as for the little bit about the health care people encouraging them to take birth control and giving the old "wink-wink-nudge-nudge" about it being for their inevitable rape.......would it help if I got some female friends of mine from the zoo to come here and tell you what a load that is, or will you just take my word for it?

Flame away.  I expect it.  But nothing Barbara Walters says is going to make me believe that this toejam is even close to true.

I didn't want this reply to the original subject to get lost in the new battle of the sexes subject.

Its an excellent post from someone who had more insite to the situation than any of us.

MiniD

[midnight Target]

It is wrong for someone to coerce someone to have sex with them. OK... fine... but its also impossible to prove and its also purely subjective in view. Thus it becomes PC.

Not impossible and it has been proven time and again.

Look up Quid Pro Quo.

Still waiting for Lazs' proof that women have poorer eyesight and tracking ability. I tend to think they may be just the opposite.


(Oh my god, did I just admit that there are differences???  )

[Kanth]

so typical

Originally posted by midnight Target

(Oh my god, did I just admit that there are differences???  )

[Mini D]

You have to prove this was offered for that.  Most companies have policies in place (as well as the military) against even consentual sex between two individuals where a "quid pro quo" situation could occur simply because the accusations are impossible to prove/disprove without physical evidence.

MiniD

[lazs2]

"to be honest lazs, I don't think I would have the patience for you in person. Fighting thru a bunch of beliefs that have nothing to do with who *I* am in particular in public is something I get to do on a daily basis so it definately doesn't appeal to me in private."

oh? are you a crusader or martyr?  or are you simply persecuted?  The best way to combat prejudice is on a personal basis I have found.   Sometimes feeling persecuted is.... well... look at weazel and beware.

MT.. I rarely watch TV but the discovery channel had a show on the sexes and was talking about the differences myth and fact.  the reason they gave for men having better vision and being able to track fast moving objects better was that the men were the hunters and it was a neede skill... as for other differences... they are all mostly hormonal according to the show and... the way the brain is organized... the communication between the brain halves.   Men and women are very different in both physical and mental.  the show was facinating..  It showed how even small children behave differently between the sexes on how they handle problems and how they play and.... violence.

The standards have been lowered in places they shouldn't be.  firefighters and police.   This is fact and women had everything to do with it starting with voting and ending with affirmative action which actually were more for white women than minorities.   The exception is probly the height requirement for cops in SF (for instance) that was an asian thing.

When you mandate that a certain percentage of the workforce be women and it is a job best done by men... the easy way out is to lower the standards... that is what was done and is still being done... that is the "reality" of the situation.   Probly you could find a few women to fill the roles legitimately but... not in the timeframe demanded by affirmative action and... not in the numbers required by such programs...

am writing this after watching the new group of recruits for the sheriffs dept out "qualifying' on the range next to my office... the 5'4" 230 lb female "officer" is waddling over to here unmolested target in hopes of finding a hole somewhere in it...   To qualify for the shotgun the instrutor was bracing her up with his arm.   Sure... kanth... you fight mean of prejudice every day but the rest of us live woith the results of affirmative action.   Oh... in order to get her into the sherrifs the male recruits are no great shakes either.   Out on my walk I pass most of the fat slobs who are "running the course".... I try to get way ahead so that I won't see em keel over and feel obligated to give CPR.

reality?  I don't think you would recognize reality if all 5'4" and 230 lbs sat on you.   If you are going to argue that affirmative action for women had nothing to do with the lowering of standards then you are not going to be taken very seriously by anyone with even moderate powers of observation.  
lazs

[lazs2]

and MT... If you were honest you would admit that those that are most adamant about there being "no differences" between the sexes or the races mean that...  only differences that make minories and women superior are accepted as differences.
lazs

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by lazs2
and MT... If you were honest you would admit that those that are most adamant about there being "no differences" between the sexes or the races mean that...  only differences that make minories and women superior are accepted as differences.
lazs

There are definite differences between men and women.. thank God. What you may have missed while looking through your myopic glasses is that the testing may have been changed without reducing the safety of the public. Isn't it possible that some of those tests were biased in order to prevent women from holding the job? Of course it is.

Differences between the races IMHO are much more a result of culture than of genetics. But assuming that genetic differences exist, we should still make every effort to treat all humans equally.

[Kanth]

none of the above, but thanks for the attempt at labeling.  I'd be just lost without one.

Originally posted by lazs2
oh? are you a crusader or martyr?  or are you simply persecuted?  The best way to combat prejudice is on a personal basis I have found.   Sometimes feeling persecuted is.... well... look at weazel and beware.
lazs

[Kanth]

Originally posted by lazs2

reality?  I don't think you would recognize reality if all 5'4" and 230 lbs sat on you.   If you are going to argue that affirmative action for women had nothing to do with the lowering of standards then you are not going to be taken very seriously by anyone with even moderate powers of observation.  
lazs

 I'm against affirmative action, and lowering of standards lazs, I don't feel either of them are needed.

And I feel that qualified people should get the job.

pretty simple.

I also don't blame people trying to join the military for military standards, people trying to join the firedept for their standards.  I think you are looking at the wrong end of the totem pole.

I'll tell you what, if a law was passed allowing people to drive on your front lawn, instead of taking pot shots at the people driving thru (because people always will) you would be better served to go get the law fixed.

this crystalizes the difference between your and my thinking.

[lazs2]

kanth... of course I would work to get the law fixed but I would also take every opportunity to point out how silly the law was in the first place.   your analodgy has the crystal clear consistancy of mud.   And I do work to change laws... Would you like to serve at my "end womens sufferage" booth at the Wall-mart parking lot?   Next sunday ok?

mt... you aren't looking very hard.   the standards are lowered and they hurt the sevices.   The reason they wanted firefighters to be able to carry people sized burdens was well... they may be required to carry people to safety...  The situation still exists but the solution is being affirmative actioned away.  Hand to hand combat is still a very real prospect in the service.   simply saying that strength rules are nothing but thinly vieled white male devil tricks and serve no purpose isn't good enough.  

kanth  I obviously don't know yur personal situation but I have allways found it stimulating to talk to people with opinions that differ from mine.   That is why I asked if you were some sort of crusader or proffesional martyr.... most of us don't get so weary of talking to people who may have differing opinions.
lazs

[Kanth]

I saw one of those guys, talking to himself on the street the other day...

I talked to him for 6 hours.

It was stimulating.

Originally posted by lazs2

kanth  I obviously don't know yur personal situation but I have allways found it stimulating to talk to people with opinions that differ from mine.   That is why I asked if you were some sort of crusader or proffesional martyr.... most of us don't get so weary of talking to people who may have differing opinions.
lazs

[midnight Target]

Minneapolis Fire Chief Rocco Forte, for example, says he made diversifying his department a priority when he took command. Chief Forte created a cultural committee to identify organization barriers blocking women from joining and started a 12-week training program to prepare women for the obstacle- course test.

Now, the passing score is based on the average fitness exam administered to all firefighters each year, so no one can complain that new recruits are lowering standards.

I guess one of us isn't looking hard enough.

[lazs2]

kanth... unlike you... I don't assume that anyone who disagrees with me is a babbling idiot (although you may find more homeless loonies that agree with you than me)... I beleive that despite being knee jerk... you and mt are pretty bright for instance.   I am allways a little baffled by the arrogance of people who hold the "progressive" view.

mt... an "average" of physical abilities can and probably is... indeed be a lowering of standards.   firefighters should be well above average in physical abilities (especially early in their careers) if, you lower the recruitment so that the weaker sex is allowed to participate (thus lowering the average even more)  then you have really kicked the guts out of the proccess.  Those who hold life and death jobs shouldn't be graded on a curve.

I don't think either of you advocate women coed with men in professional or even school football or that we have no gender rules in boxing.  

but then maybe I am just old fashioned or... maybe evolution made some strides that I have missed in the last couple of decades.

lazs