Al Queida leader

[funkedup]

" in general I try to be pragmatic."

In this case a pragmatic action would be to use any means needed to get information out of this captive which could save lives of potential victims of Qaeda operations in progress.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by straffo
I was speaking of the "sub human" expression.
I never spoke of the USA  as a country or a whole.

But about some USA citizen who are using the same kind of justification used by the Nazi .

OK Straffo, assuming you are sincere, why is it nazi like to want to free a country that is heavily oppressed by it's dictator? A dictator that does pose a threat to your country. A dictator you once ran out of a country he invaded and you stopped short of invading his capitol when he promised to be a good boy. A dictator that has thumbed his nose at every agreement he has made with you.

BTW, have you seen any of the documentaries regarding the Gulf War? Did you know that just after his Elite Republican Guard was defeated he called in his top five generals and had them executed? Doesn't that tell you something bad about this guy?

[straffo]

Originally posted by funkedup
" in general I try to be pragmatic."

In this case a pragmatic action would be to use any means needed to get information out of this captive which could save lives of potential victims of Qaeda operations in progress.

but I won't claim it in public

[straffo]

Iron I agree with you but it won't change my mind : it you act like a nazi you are very close to be a nazi.

Not that I'm a supporter of Saddam he represent all that I hate but if we act like him where is the difference ?

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by straffo
Iron I agree with you but it won't change my mind : it you act like a nazi you are very close to be a nazi.

Not that I'm a supporter of Saddam he represent all that I hate but if we act like him where is the difference ?

Yes if he is being a mad dictator type who invades his neighbors and threatens destruction with  WMD it sure would be wrong to act "like him" and not give him a chance to "act like him". Straffo your kind of thinking is exactly wht France and europe in general are pretty much worthless and inconsequential in world affairs - you are too thoughful, introsepective and indecisive. I mean this is the same europe that spent 5 years thinking about doing something substantial while 250,000 eurpeans were slaughtered from 1991-1995... Of course the USA finally got involved in 95 and things were squared away real fast.

Blah! Shut up Europe! Lead, follow, or ( France especially) get out of the diddlying way!

[straffo]

I'm not Europe don't mix me with European "Diplomatie"

And a contrario to some I don't allways agree with my governement (especially when it's socialist) .
Where did you got that I was part of the waiting gang of idiot seeing mass murderer at less than 1000km from home and doing nothing ?

Do you really think I was just looking at the 8' O'clock news ?.

[GRUNHERZ]

I donno straffo you sure seem bent on giving saddam the milosevic treatment - as in we cant be sure he is a bad guy until he does the same exact bad thing several times over and we must make sure he gets those chances to prove himself.

[straffo]

Do be short : I've nothing to be proud about my time in the military especially during this period.
I was just boiling 1000km far from the place I was supposed to be (IMO of course).


It's just the sudden "agitation" about Iraq that irrate me, the sudden concern for the Iraqi/kurds or the even more sudden link between Al Queda and Saddam...

We (westerner) have put Saddam in place we even vetoed a resolution about Gas usage againt Iranian by Saddam ...

And suddenly he is the only enemy ?

What about the Saoudia,Pakistan ?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by straffo
What about the Saoudia,Pakistan ?

Can you elaborate on this line of thinking please? Because I truly do not understand the line of reasoning here...

The way I understand your argument is along this line:

Saddam is bad, but there are other nations that are bad too, therefore we must not take action against Iraq.

[straffo]

You're clever than that Hortlund.

I just say that Saddam is not the real menace, he don't have the $$$ ,the troops,or the support of muslim country.

But do you think that the Pakistani or the Saoudian have really stopped their support of extremist muslim ?

They are less visible than before 9/11 but they didn't have changed their agenda they just are more prudent and stealth.


Lot of poster here speak of the kurds

But none speak of the woman in Saoudia ...
You see where I want to go ?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by straffo
I just say that Saddam is not the real menace, he don't have the $$$ ,the troops,or the support of muslim country.

[/b]
But you do agree that he has biological and chemical weapons still unaccounted for? Or is that a big US lie?

You do agree that he is supporting, funding and training terrorist organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Aqucsa brigades?

You do agree that he has used gas against Iran and on Kurds?

You do agree that his government is upheld by terror, torture, murder?

You do agree that he is not doing his best to cooperate with the UN weapons inspectors?

But do you think that the Pakistani or the Saoudian have really stopped their support of extremist muslim ?

[/b]
It is not the same thing. The Pakistani government is actively supporting the US war on terror. But there are alot of Pakistani citizens that hate the US and wants to help the terrorists.

Same with Saudi. The Saudi government is still considered a US ally. But there are alot of Saudi citizens that hate the US and wants to help the terrorists.

But in Iraq, the government is the one who hates the US and wants to help the terrorists. While the Iraqi citizens spend their days being opressed.

There is a difference, and surely you see that too.

Lot of poster here speak of the kurds

But none speak of the woman in Saoudia ...
You see where I want to go ?

Well, not really... that is why I'm asking. The woman in Saudi is treated bad by the Saudi government, therefore the US should not help the Kurds? I fail to see the connection or the logic in that.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Hortlund
But you do agree that he has biological and chemical weapons still unaccounted for? Or is that a big US lie?

I agree

You do agree that he is supporting, funding and training terrorist organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Aqucsa brigades?

More than the saoudian? I disagreee

You do agree that he has used gas against Iran and on Kurds?

Agree

You do agree that his government is upheld by terror, torture, murder?

agree

You do agree that he is not doing his best to cooperate with the UN weapons inspectors?

Partial agreement the bar look to be rised each time he step in the good direction.
Not fair I swear.

It is not the same thing. The Pakistani government is actively supporting the US war on terror. But there are alot of Pakistani citizens that hate the US and wants to help the terrorists.

Very lately ... ask the Indian (not that the Idian are innocent ...)

Same with Saudi. The Saudi government is still considered a US ally. But there are alot of Saudi citizens that hate the US and wants to help the terrorists.

Don't forget they have a kind of mediaval/tribal form of governement.
Even if the Saoudian governement say they support US ,the Saoudian have enought rich citizen to continue financing terrorism
and they still build mosquée in france where the mufti are far from being moderate muslim.

But in Iraq, the government is the one who hates the US and wants to help the terrorists.

Agitation (I dunno how to translate "gesticulation").

While the Iraqi citizens spend their days being opressed.

Surely , but the US supported  Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi long and the SAVAK was very close to the gestapo ...

There is a difference, and surely you see that too.
 

I see a <> but a very thin and little <>

Well, not really... that is why I'm asking. The woman in Saudi is treated bad by the Saudi government, therefore the US should not help the Kurds? I fail to see the connection or the logic in that.

You never spoke to a Kurd or Afghan woman I bet ?

[Hortlund]

Straffo where in my post did I say stuff like "Do you agree that Iraq supports terrorism more than Saudi Arabia does"?

And yet you want to spin it in that direction with your "More than the saoudian? I disagreee"-answer.

Again you try to turn it into some twisted "well, Iraq supports terrorists, but the Saudis supports terrorists too"-argument...fine...but where does that lead? Iraq supports terrorism, and saudi supports terrorism...therefore we should not take action against Iraq? There is no logic in that, and there is no connection between the two.

And besides, the saudi government is not supporting the terrorists, the Iraqi government is. (But lets ignore that part, just focus on the "why are you trying to spin it like that" question)  

You keep coming back to this:
"Even if the Saoudian governement say they support US ,the Saoudian have enought rich citizen to continue financing terrorism."

That is completely irrelevant to, and completely different from the Iraqi issue. How is that line of logic?

"Iraqi government supports terrorism, Saudi government does not support terrorism, but Saudi citizens does, therefore we should not take action against Iraq"?

Explain to me how that logic works.

I have not spoken to any Afghani women lately no...I have spoken to a couple of Kurds though. There is not a single one of them who wants to see Saddam stay in power, and every single one of them wants the US to go to war against Iraq...but what is your point?

I keep coming back to that question...what is the point with your arguments when you want to say that other nations are just as bad or even worse than Iraq? Are you trying to say that because there are other evil nations out there too, we should not deal with any of them simply because we cannot decide who is more evil?

I get the impression that you, Blitz, Duedel, see this as some sort of amusing debate-game where you score points on trying to pick apart the reasons for war, or whatever. Meanwhile the civilians keep on dying in Iraq, and the terrorists keep on working on new ways to attack us.

[straffo]

My point is I do find DISGUSTING to have allied as bad as the enemy.

Point is those saoudian bastard have supported and likely are still supporting terrorism in MY country but as the are allied with the US of A no one can start an action against them.

Btw the Saoudian still supporting terrorism are part of the Saoud dinasty and with the kind of governement they have (feodal you know) there is not difference between them and their governement.

Saddam is an abomination and should be defeated.
But I do think that after the collapse of Iraq as today it will be a complete mess in this vital region of the globe.
Actuall I even think that Saddam's dictature contribute to the stabillity of this part of the world (I know it's an horrible sentence).

Have you seen the repartition of population in Iraq ? it's far from being homogenous it's close to Afghanistan ... and will end the same.


Speaking of the kurds woman now are you seriously thinking the kurds are different from the rest of this region's muslim ?

[Dowding]

Meanwhile the civilians keep on dying in Iraq, and the terrorists keep on working on new ways to attack us.

Oh those poor Iraqi civilians! How your heart must bleed! We must liberate them and let them set-up a democratic, self-determined Arab state!

Let's dig out a few gems concerning this issue. I'll take the liberty of giving it a title:

A Collection of Musings on the Humanitarian Plight of the Palestinians and the Israeli-Palestinian Troubles, By Hortlund:

And the sooner the Pals blow themselves up, the sooner the whole region will be peaceful.

Why should we trust the arabs with a Palestinian state now?

Anyway, the Israelis used a bomb to kill a terrorist leader. The bomb caused collateral damage. Good job on the terrorist leader, too bad about the collateral damage.

In summary, I would like to quote the Right Honourable Gentleman, Sir Hangtime:

Steve, yer ability to condone one protagonists inhumane methods while condeming the others is kinda gay.