Author Topic: How do you kill a tiger? (Read 1767 times)

Shiva · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2003, 01:44:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by vorticon
tiger shmiger the panzer is still the best...except when it gets killed in one hit while the enemy panzers are still invisible!!!

This brings up something I would like to see added to the Panzer IV and Tiger -- commander's cupola views. When you're in the gunner position, you can't see anything except straight down the gunsight. Since you are theoretically in a fully-crewed tank, I think that it would be beneficial if HTC added cupola-slit views for the other eight view directions for the Panzer IV and Tiger for position 2. This would represent the tank commander's ability to look around from the cupola without unbuttoning, and simplify the interior art, too -- all you would need for each view is a black screen with a vision-slot view like the driver's position has.

AKIron · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2003, 01:49:09 PM »

Two tigers are walking along a jungle trail in single file.

The rearmost tiger wanders off the trail for a few minutes, then reappears shortly thereafter. A few moments later, the front tiger feels what seems to be the other tiger's tongue, applied just below his tail. The tiger disapproves of this action, but doesn't want to start anything by bringing it up. Then, the tiger again feels the tongue, again in the same place.

He decides to confront the after tiger, and asks him, "Did you just lick me twice in the butt?"

The other tiger replied, "Yeah, sorry about that. I just ate a lawyer and I was trying to get the taste out of my mouth."

Oh wait, this was about killing tigers, will look some more.

Estes · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2003, 02:50:01 PM »

What I have found to work well when I am attacking them in an m8, is to get point blank behind them and shoot the back of their turret. Same thing for panzers.

Widewing · « **Reply #18 on:** March 03, 2003, 03:20:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKcurly
A near miss from a 1k bomb does nothing - in real life. Near misses from 1k bombs --> string of bombs.

curly

Curly, back in the mid 1970s, I observed the results of A-4s dropping pairs of Mk.83 1,000 lb bombs on the Guantanamo live ordnance range. Their targets were several old M-48 tanks (about 47 tons I believe). A well-aimed pair of Mk.83s exploded within yards of one M-48. When the dirt and smoke cleared, the M-48 was laying upside down, its turret on the ground alongside. I think we need to define what a near miss is. During the massive bombing as a preliminary to Operation Cobra, the commander of the Panzer Lehr Division reported many of his Panthers, Mk.IV tanks and Assault Guns tossed about like toys, some 50 yards from where they had been placed. Likely, those were victims of 2,000 and even 4,000-pound bombs. Nonetheless, a pair of 1,000-pound bombs landing within a few yards will send a Tiger for a rather impressive ride. Now, if they land at a distance greater than 50-100 yards, concussion becomes the only significant factor, especially if the hatches are open.

My regards,

Widewing

Pongo · « **Reply #19 on:** March 03, 2003, 03:21:17 PM »

Usually the intel people would have to go arround the battle field and see what hulls that had been killed were Tigers and Which were Panzer IVs. The western allies had real trouble telling the difference. All guns were 88s. Most tanks were Tigers.

AKcurly · « **Reply #20 on:** March 03, 2003, 03:44:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
Curly, back in the mid 1970s, I observed the results of A-4s dropping pairs of Mk.83 1,000 lb bombs on the Guantanamo live ordnance range. Their targets were several old M-48 tanks (about 47 tons I believe). A well-aimed pair of Mk.83s exploded within yards of one M-48. When the dirt and smoke cleared, the M-48 was laying upside down, its turret on the ground alongside. I think we need to define what a near miss is. During the massive bombing as a preliminary to Operation Cobra, the commander of the Panzer Lehr Division reported many of his Panthers, Mk.IV tanks and Assault Guns tossed about like toys, some 50 yards from where they had been placed. Likely, those were victims of 2,000 and even 4,000-pound bombs. Nonetheless, a pair of 1,000-pound bombs landing within a few yards will send a Tiger for a rather impressive ride. Now, if they land at a distance greater than 50-100 yards, concussion becomes the only significant factor, especially if the hatches are open.

My regards,

Widewing

Sure Widewing (concerning 'near miss.') OTOH, concussion effects (not counting shrapnel) from a single 1k bomb will kill humans out to approximately 110 feet. (I don't have the reference handy, but recall Beetle's recent post concerning his inability to kill a tank with a 1k bomb. I posted the link there.)

curly

LLv34_Camouflage · « **Reply #21 on:** March 03, 2003, 04:01:13 PM »

Yep, a 1000kg (~2200lbs) bomb should "throw a tank to tree top height".

Camo

Dowding · « **Reply #22 on:** March 03, 2003, 04:05:07 PM »

So exactly which part of my post do you disagree with? Widewing was talking about the prelude to D-Day carpet bombing which I was talking about...

A near miss with a 1k bomb will toss a tank in the air.

wulfie · « **Reply #23 on:** March 03, 2003, 04:16:38 PM »

I don't know the numbers (size of bomb, etc.) but in at least one German AAR I've read Pz IVH or Pz IVJ were 'flipped on their back' by Allied carpet bombing in/around Caen in '44 (Normandy invasion).

Also, close proximity hits from big bombs or large HE (big artillery, SP gun fire, etc.) often would 'mission kill' AFVs without destroying the AFV or the crew outright. Things like gunsights and turret rings being damaged, MA being damaged, etc.

Re: the Gitmo test, I'll bet those M48s had a decent weight/mass advantage over a Pz IV.

Dowding - the Pz VIEs of the sPzAbt near Caen were mainly suffering from immobilization, crew disorientation, etc. from the carpet bombing there. Most of the AFVs that were 'flipped over' were Pz IIIs or Pz IVs.

Mike/wulfie

wulfie · « **Reply #24 on:** March 03, 2003, 04:18:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by icemaw
Ive done this exact attack many times. Never once did the tiger even smoke I have pumped 20 37mm AP m8 rounds into the back of a tiger from point blank range and never as far as I could tell ever did any damage to one.

I've immobilized Pz VIEs in AH with 37mm AP fired from the M8. It took a few hits to do so.

Mike/wulfie

Widewing · « **Reply #25 on:** March 03, 2003, 04:34:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKcurly
Sure Widewing (concerning 'near miss.') OTOH, concussion effects (not counting shrapnel) from a single 1k bomb will kill humans out to approximately 110 feet. (I don't have the reference handy, but recall Beetle's recent post concerning his inability to kill a tank with a 1k bomb. I posted the link there.)

curly

I seem to recall that the German officer was Heinz Guderien (could be faulty memory though). Anyway, he wrote that many of his Tank crews and most of his infantry were suffering from shock, utterly incapable of fighting. Concussion need not kill, it need only to induce shock to effectively knock them out of action.

In the game, it takes a direct hit from a 1k bomb to knock out a Tiger. Just the other day, I had one at the edge of an airfield. The area around me looked like a moonscape from literally countless numbers of bombs being dropped. Not only that, but it absorbed at least 6 hits from Panzers, all of which died. Eventually, after killing well over a dozen enemy tanks and planes, and most of the airfield, a Stuka finally hit me with a 1800 kilo bomb. Oddly enough, it was an M16 that did the only damage prior to the Stuka when it shot off a track.

As modeled, a Tiger is one tough monkey.

My regards,

Widewing

AKcurly · « **Reply #26 on:** March 03, 2003, 05:11:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
So exactly which part of my post do you disagree with? Widewing was talking about the prelude to D-Day carpet bombing which I was talking about...

A near miss with a 1k bomb will toss a tank in the air.

I'm sure carpet bombing is very effective against tanks. The combined blast effect of a nearby string would probably turn them upside down.

However, the statement "A near miss with a 1k bomb will toss a tank in the air" appears to be inaccurate if by "near miss" you mean 30 feet. Clearly, with the correct definition of "near miss", a 1k bomb will turn a 50 ton tank upside down. But, 30 or 50 feet probably won't do it.

Recall the page I mentioned earlier http://coolschool.auf.net/01/frag/spine/fraginfo.htm and its assertion that the effect of blast on personnel is confined to a relatively short distance (110 feet for a 2000 pound bomb.)

If the concussion from a 2k pound bomb won't kill a human at 150 feet, why should we suspect a 1k pound bomb would up-end a 50 ton tank if it missed by 30 feet? Doesn't sound very likely to me.

For a 1k bomb to kill a tiger, I think it's going to have to be so close that it's in effect a direct hit.

curly

cobia38 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 04, 2003, 12:23:59 AM »

AKCurly your not suposed to (near miss )
the idea is to hit the cockroach:D

N8DOG · « **Reply #28 on:** March 04, 2003, 08:21:27 PM »

the only 100% way to kill a tiger every time is to let me drive it. Or put it up against GPreddy or one of his AKA's

bigsky · « **Reply #29 on:** March 05, 2003, 01:31:01 AM »

in 1986 when i was at armor school at ft. knox, when i was getting my scout training. the instuctors told us the weakest spot on a tank to hit with a tank gun or anti-tank missle is the turret ring. thats the spot where the turret meets the hull. there is always a crack otherwise the turret could not turn. on soviet tanks it was especialy vulnerable because thats where the ammo was stored due to there auto-loading system. a tanks armor cant be thick everywhere so generaly the back, top and bottom are thin. but in battle you dont get to many shots at the back or top and bottom. in my experience in AH, tanks the turret ring is correctly modeled in. its hard to get that shot but i have been close enough (400-500m) to test this myself. i killed a tiger at @400 but it took 6 or 8 good shots to blow him up. a hair low the shot bounced off the hull, a hair to high they bounced off the mantle or the turret. now for me to this the guy in the tiger wasnt that good of a shot and he had other people to shoot at. as for as bombing tigers its the same thing. only a DIRECT HIT will do. i killed one with the 100kg bombs from a la-7. ask dadrabbit if you dont believe me, he was in the tiger. perhaps the hatch was open, i was very surprised that it killed his tiger. i find it very frustrating to hit a tank 5 or 6 times and it kills my tank with 1 shot it dont seem right somehow. but i remember seeing a pic of a sherman tank hit 10 or 15 times by a 88mm gun. the shot made a hole in and a hole out they didnt hit anything important inside so the shermand drove away with a few speed holes. now i have no idea how this game is built so i cant be positive that what im observing is correct. so hitech if you read this please corect me if im wrong.
bigsky