How come our military is filled with morons?

[davidpt40]

Well, I heard on tv today that a U.S. RC-135 was engaged by North Korean Mig29s.  "Oh" I thought to myself "Good thing our recon and bomber aircraft have F14s and F15s to protect them."  Then the story went on to say that the RC-135 was flying without escort, AS USUAL, and that the North Korean aircraft engaged it 250 miles out over the ocean and proceeded to get radar lock and perform mock attacks on it.  One such mock attack was a Mig zooming past the RC135 within 25 feet.  

It seems that our military would learn to escort our recon aircraft on hostile missions, especially when we have already lost one aircraft on a very similar mission to China.  Not only was the crew nearly killed, but every single piece of surviellance equipment was inspected by the Chinese.  

What am I even paying taxes for?  If something like 22 cents of every tax dollar is spent on defense, why cant we get some fighter escort?  Heck, I could do a better job of mission planning than some of these airforce/navy guys.

[Ripsnort]

They routinely fly the route, at the same schedule and time, and have done for many years so that there is some sense of regularity sensed by NK.  Theres a diplomatic reason behind it.

[Gyro/T69]

"It seems that our military would learn to escort our recon aircraft on hostile missions"

Hmmm flying in International Air Space is now a hostile mission?

What would your reaction be if we splashed a few of their MIGs and they didn't fire first. Would it be, How come our military is filled with morons?

[Drunky]

It's international sea/airspace

This is just a case of N.Korea getting froggy.

Think of China a while back.

N.Korea has also said that they consider the joint excerise between S.Korea and the U.S. to be a preparation to attack N.Korea.

They further said that this will be a prelude to another "Korean War".

[Hangtime]

LOL!

Then the story went on to say that the RC-135 was flying without escort, AS USUAL,

We don't normally escort aircraft engaged in peactime operations well outside national borders.

and that the North Korean aircraft engaged it 250 miles out over the ocean

Exaggeration.. it was closer to 100 miles out and the aircraft was not 'engaged' it was 'harrased'.

One such mock attack was a Mig zooming past the RC135 within 25 feet.

Exaggeration.. it was no closer than 50 feet in the report i read, but I will grant you that the NK flight profile was exceedingly dangerous and violated international saftey regulations.

It seems that our military would learn to escort our recon aircraft on hostile missions,

again.. exaggeration.. we were not on a 'hostile' mission. The NK and anybody else is free to fly anything they want anywhere in international airspace.

What am I even paying taxes for? If something like 22 cents of every tax dollar is spent on defense,

I doubt seriously you are actually paying any taxes as a college student. However the taxes I spend go towards maintaining the strongest military in the world.. so that when NK does in fact start a war we will be able to snuff 'em without your college gettin nuked in the process.

We hope.

[AKIron]

Kinda surprised they risked their best since they have only a relative few Mig 29s. They must have been fairly confident there would be no accidents or incidents.

They do have more than a few Mig 21s though. No matter, push comes to shove I bet we'll do even better than the 14-1 kill ratio we had before considering the technology level was far more equal then than it is now.

[Drunky]

I forgot...N.Korea also said the would use nuclear weapons.

Sounds a little crazy...even Hussien hasn't openly threatened like this.

Even the N.Korean military confidently say that they will win against the U.S. in a war.

Could be an intersting year.  Possibly dissappointing for two nations if certain goverment agencies have the balls.

[Hangtime]

i hear the russians have a diffrent K/D ratio for the 'first' Korean Conflict. Though I doubt their numbers.. I know for sure the 14/1 ratio mentioned above is bogus.

[funkedup]

Comedy Gold

TheWobble is that you?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Hangtime
i hear the russians have a diffrent K/D ratio for the 'first' Korean Conflict. Though I doubt their numbers.. I know for sure the 14/1 ratio mentioned above is bogus.

It's still touted today, how do you know for sure?

[senna]

>We don't normally escort aircraft engaged in peactime
>operations well outside national borders.

Ok, I've read somewhere that there were two F-15s or perhaps F-16s some twenty miles back. Not sure if thats the case or not. If they were AMRAM armed, they could have knocked off the four fiters without engaging visually. Escorting the 135 up close may seem antagonistic or something and having fighters of two sides within visual range might make somebody extra trigger happy. It could have been worse. Glad it turned out for the better.

BTW: IMO BVR would be better in this arrangment because of what I mentoned above as well as 4 exp pilots vs 2 exp pilots is a bad situation. In a more mixed combat situation, pilot quality may be more diverse but I think in such initial tangos, one would probably expect some hotshots up there. My guess. Now if Drex was up there they be 4 dead migs. lol

[davidpt40]

We don't normally escort aircraft engaged in peactime operations well outside national borders.

You just said that the 250 mile range was bogus, and that it was closer to 100 miles.  100 miles is nothing in terms of flight time.

 

it was closer to 100 miles out and the aircraft was not 'engaged' it was 'harrased'.

With you being a Vietnam vet (I think), why dont you tell me how many U.S or NVA soldiers who were killed by "harassing" fire?  Doesn't matter what you call it, you could say the Migs were trying to have "tea time" with the RC135 if you want, they were still acting very hostile.

again.. exaggeration.. we were not on a 'hostile' mission. The NK and anybody else is free to fly anything they want anywhere in international airspace.

Funny.  Well the U.S. seems to think that actions are "hostile" when the Russians try to run surviellance missions with Bear Bombers near U.S. airspace.  I'm sure you have seen pictures of F14s and F15s escorting the Bears away.  And if surviellance isnt considered "hostile", why was a Mig25 tracked flying at Mach 2.9 on a recon mission near Israel?  Much more fuel effecient to fly subsonic right?

I doubt seriously you are actually paying any taxes as a college student. However the taxes I spend go towards maintaining the strongest military in the world.. so that when NK does in fact start a war we will be able to snuff 'em without your college gettin nuked in the process.

What in the world...in case you didn't know, theres really only two ways to go to college.  Either join the military and get the GI bill (which probably applies to 90% of the crew of that RC135) or get a job to pay for it yourself.  In the spare time I do have from working 3rd shift and going college, I do enjoy reading a little military history.

[Hangtime]

It's how the numbers were compiled.. if you look at actual air to air combats instead of total losses regardless of how those losses occured, you can't get the 13/1 ratio i usually see touted..

Soviet forces claimed 1309 American aircraft kills of all types, while admitting to losing some 350 aircraft and 200 pilots. American records generally agree that U.S. losses were around 1300, but only 139 were lost in air-to-air combat. The rest were lost to anti-aircraft fire or for other reasons. The U.S. claims 823 MiG-15 kills (792 by Sabre pilots). Some of the downed MiGs may have been piloted by Chinese or North Koreans.

Who were those masked men?

So assuming enemy losses of 350 to 139 allied in ACM, thats about 2.5/1

Not that it matters much.. just a point of intrest.

[AKIron]

I've seen numbers from as low as 2:1 up to 14:1. No arguing there isn't usually some exageration during war, still, can't be sure the higher number isn't accurate, imo.

[Toad]

I flew RC missions from 75-80. I can only remember being escorted on a bare handful of them and those were in the Med off Libya. Navy Tomcats were the escorts.

I flew NK missions more times than I can count. Never got intercepted. They tried, but we have ways. Well, we had ways. I been out of it a long time now. Never intercepted by the Chinese either; we didn't let them get close.

Russians? Sure, NP. Intercepted many times by them. Cubans? Sure, NP. Intercepted many times by them.

And we flew about 20 miles off the coasts, not 150.

Reconaissance isn't considered hostile unless it actually crosses from International Airspace into National Airspace. Those Bears the US escorted down the coast weren't considered hostile, any more than we were when the Russians intercepted us off Vladivostok in International Airspace.

Both sides saw the value of Recon. It's just that there are some countries that are not considered "stable" so you don't give them a chance to prove it. NK is one of those. Well, it was that way when I did the job.

I'm thinking Tac Doctrine must have changed with respect to NK in order for them to have gotten that close. Two other possibilities: Somebody on our side screwed up big time or NK has developed capabilities that they never had before and very, very few folks DO have.... if any one does.

And, like Forrest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that".