Police State?

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Oedipus
"tell me Oed, what right have you personally lost? "

 Personally? I'm an American. And as an American  can  only suggest, once again, that you go read the Patriot Acts. As for Weazel he answered your question very well. With points and not hysteria, inuendo or with another question. You may not like him or hi POV but you can't possibly claim the valid points and specifics he brings up as farbications.

Rude, it's dissappointment.  
Not fear.

Oed

Shouldn't be too hard for you then to name just one right you have lost Oed?

[hawk220]

hehe Iron, it WILL be interesting to see in a few years if some kid, who is a model rocket nut, gets put on some 'watchlist' for buying a case of D engines..then gets denied admision to some college cause he was on a watchlist.

most likely not, and actually, I see the reasoning behind the whole issue, those engines are actually little bombs and in great quantities could do damage.

when I was in JR high, we would take model rockets and in the nose, we'd put in inverted , empty CO2 cartriges filled with FFFF black powder, so when the ejection charge went off to kick the chute out, it would ignite the poweder and the little grenade went off..

oops, there's someone at the door...

[weazel]

C'mon, lets hear a real rebuttal of my list.

I'll be here to answer any counter argument you can come up with.

If I don't answer promptly it's because I need to go pick up some 2x4's and sheetrock.

Originally posted by AKIron
Everything he posted was vehement opinion, none of which was worth responding to.

Tell me Oed, what right have you personally lost?

Much, if not all, of what Weazel posts is untrue and he never backs it up when called on it. It was a weak moment for me to respond to him.

[AKIron]

Alright Weazel, even though it took you no time to cut and paste, are these even your words?

Originally posted by weazel
Lets go there shall we?

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Bush is using OUR taxes to fund Imaginary Invisible Cloud Being insanity that caused 9-11.

-What the hell does this even mean?

If you want to live under a right wing religious government then move to f**king Iran.

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Ari Fliesher told Bill Maher "Watch what you say," for telling the truth.

-Would you deny Ari Fliesher the right to express his view?


or the right of the people peaceably to assemble

Recently in New York, protest organizers were denied a permit to assemble.

The reason? There were too many people, up to 500,000 were expected.

- Yeah, so? Ever hear of crowd control? The governement does have the responsibility to ensure safety. You ever consider that the safety of the protesters was at risk? Probably not.

We've been denied the right to assemble, because too many of us are angry.

Amendment II
...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms

Bush loves guns (and killing) almost as much as he loves tax cuts, so yes, The Second Amendment, so far, is still in effect.

-Only opinion, more of your proganda roadkill

Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace....

Bush has declared a never-ending war, so III doesn't count

-I suppose you would have said the same about FDR when Pearl Harbor was attacked

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause

Bush has made a mockery of the Fourth Amendment.

He can f**king EXECUTE you if he feels like it.

Do you STILL think we have a Bill of Rights?


-No facts here, only vehemence spewing


Amendment V
No person shall be held ...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

Another plank in the Constitution devoured by the evil son of a squeak.

There are HUNDREDS of SUSPECTS being held without bail, without being arraigned by a judge to see if there is probable cause, without attorneys and without even a phone call to their family.

Do you think they manage the immigration rolls with more or less competence than they handled eligibility rolls of black voters in Jeb Bush's Florida?

You can't see a difference between that and pre-Bush America?


-Only more personal attacks to back up your accusations


Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury, ...informed of the nature the accusation;
...witnesses, ...have Counsel for his defence.

Total washout by the Bush goons.

It's an abortion of justice on the most massive scale imaginable, but we don't talk about it, because "then the terrorists would win," if we upheld the Constitution.


-What the hell are you talking about, reference please



Amendment VII includes the phrase the right of trial by jury shall be preserved

In Bush's America, there is no right to a trial by jury.

In Bush's America, you have the right to be jailed on the government's whim.

In Bush's America, you have the right to be executed on the government's whim.

And please, don't say, "But Bush hasn't done any of that."

How would you know?

I'm so old, I remember when the GOP was against a federal government of tyranny and secrecy.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

ha ha
 
Being executed on the government's whim sounds cruel and unusual to me.

Can you make a case that it doesn't?

Amendment IX

Not applicable

Amendment X
The powers ...not delegated to the United States are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The Tenth - Bob Dole's all-time favorite.

Remember that pitiful campaign Bob ran in 1996?

He kept The Tenth on a card in his jacket so he could whip it out whenever he wanted to talk about the powers of the states, which we all know is code talk for "I Wish I Was in Dixie."

The next Republican for president didn't feel that same way about The Tenth Amendment.

He got his father's friends to go before a hardly-impartial Supreme Court and asked them to overturn the Tenth Amendment and appoint Spurious George.

So let's do a re-cap.

#1.We've lost on three counts, but we'll say that's just one down

#2 Has changed, but only to get more guns in people's hands,

#3 Is a peacetime amendment, doesn't apply,

#4 Was a mockery, I should get double for that, but that makes two we've lost

#5 Due process, you don't even get a trial, so that's three fallen Amendments

#6 Speedy, public trial - no chance, that makes four lost Amendments

#7 Trial by jury for common lawsuits, not applicable

#8 Cruel & unusual - that's five Dead Amendments

#9 Not applicable

#10 States rights, that makes six of ten Amendments destroyed by Bush.

9/11 not only knocked the brain and spine out of the average right wing American, apparently it killed the desire for liberty as well.

Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women...when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can do much to help it.

blah blah blah - why the hell did I bother

[weazel]

You asked a question....and you got an answer.

Typical right wing strawman, you can't refute the truth so you go you go into personal attack mode or try to divert the topic to safer ground.

The list of lost liberty is valid....lets hear a rebuttal.

Oh wait.....why bother asking for a response, everyone knows right wingers fear the truth.

What a pathetic way to live a life...scared of the truth.

[Apache]

Originally posted by AKIron
I realized you might think I meant you since you started the thread Apache after I posted. Actually it was Weazel I had in mind when I made my emotional post.

Ah...ok. After I posted my response, I started thinking that maybe you thought that I thought...wait, I'm confused.

[Turdboy]

Weazel your post is as full of toejam as you are.

Why should anyone answer your BS?

It's like talking to a 2 year old.

[Apache]

Originally posted by Gunthr
My understanding is that Martial Law can only be declared if Civil Law Enforcement is unable to operate.

In such a case, I agree with Martial Law.

I don't believe Martial Law = Police State.

I believe Martial Law is a temporary thing to get us past a crisis, a sort of "plan B."

You're quite right.

Let me rephrase.

Constitutional Dictatorship.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by weazel
You asked a question....and you got an answer.

Typical right wing strawman, you can't refute the truth so you go you go into personal attack mode or try to divert the topic to safer ground.

The list of lost liberty is valid....lets hear a rebuttal.

Oh wait.....why bother asking for a response, everyone knows right wingers fear the truth.

What a pathetic way to live a life...scared of the truth.

Weazel, I did rebutt, I'll edit to make my responses easier to read.

[AKIron]

Admittedly I can't quote the Patriot Act. However I am somewhat familiar with it. I could be wrong (I will research since you provide no reference) but I believe every instance you cited requires approval by a judge. That contradicts your assertions. I will respond later.

Originally posted by Oedipus
One?  Here's a few off the top of my head...

 With the Patriot Acts,

 As an American the police can seize my property, whether or not any crime has been committed. I can be arrested and detained just as easily. No warrant and with no rights if they choose not to level any charges but simply want to detain me for whatever reason.
 
 Privacy?  The government can call for and look at my medical, financial, mental health, and educational records without having to show evidence of a crime and without a court order.

 In the past I had the right to protest publicly. But with a step back in time to McArthieism the Patriot Act created a new definition of "domestic terrorism" which targets people who engage in acts of political protest and subjects them to wiretapping and enhanced penalties

 Oed

[AKIron]

Well, I couldn't find anything to indicate that what you said is true Oedipus. If you can cite a section I'll read it. Also, I'm not saying that the Patriot Act wasn't rushed out and will need some work.

However, this would seemed to indicate that your assertions are incorrect:

``SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN
                   INTELLIGENCE AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM
                   INVESTIGATIONS.

       ``(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of
     Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall
     be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make
     an application for an order requiring the production of any
     tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents,
     and other items) for an investigation to protect against
     international terrorism or clandestine intelligence
     activities, provided that such investigation of a United
     States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of
     activities protected by the first amendment to the
     Constitution.
       ``(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--
       ``(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the
     Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor
     order); and
       ``(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely
     upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment
     to the Constitution of the United States.
       ``(b) Each application under this section--
       ``(1) shall be made to--
       ``(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a);
     or
       ``(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of
     title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by
     the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to
     hear applications and grant orders for the production of
     tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of
     that court; and
       ``(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought
     for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with
     subsection (a)(2) to protect against international terrorism
     or clandestine intelligence activities.
       ``(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section,
     the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as
     modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds
     that the application meets the requirements of this section.
       ``(2) An order under this subsection shall not disclose
     that it is issued for purposes of an investigation described
     in subsection (a).
       ``(d) No person shall disclose to any other person (other
     than those persons necessary to produce the tangible things
     under this section) that the Federal Bureau of Investigation
     has sought or obtained tangible things under this section.
       ``(e) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things
     under an order pursuant to this section shall not be liable
     to any other person for such production. Such production
     shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of any privilege
     in any other proceeding or context.

[Leslie]

Not law enforcement or military, but I would like to think the Police or Army would not fire on its own citizens as a requirement.  

If it came to that, I believe it would start another civil war, which we would lose again, in the long run.

This is one of the things people were concerned about back in the days of the black helicopters, secret concentration camps in the wilderness, and the UN.  About 15 years ago...LOL.  American troops or police wouldn't do it, unless attacked first, and they certainly wouldn't go around terrorizing neighborhoods.



Les

[weazel]

All the points I touched on have been discussed in the media and this UBB as well.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Bush is using OUR taxes to fund Imaginary Invisible Cloud Being insanity that caused 9-11.

If you want to live under a right wing religious government then move to f**king Iran.

-What the hell does this even mean?

In January 2001, the Failure in Chief unveiled the signature social service effort of his administration -- the president's "faith-based initiative."

As part of Spurious Georges campaign, Bush has proposed a broad expansion of federal funding of religious groups to provide social services.

Bush has also created a new office to promote government aid to churches, called the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.

So much for the seperation of church and state.

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Ari Fliesher told Bill Maher "Watch what you say," for telling the truth.

-Would you deny Ari Fliesher the right to express his view?

As the mouth piece of chimpys regime I expect him to honor the principles this country was founded on...mainly freedom of speech, and not try to silence debate or questions pertaining to the un-American path Bush tries to ram down Americas throat.

or the right of the people peaceably to assemble

Recently in New York, protest organizers were denied a permit to assemble.

The reason? There were too many people, up to 500,000 were expected.

We've been denied the right to assemble, because too many of us are angry.

- Yeah, so? Ever hear of crowd control? The governement does have the responsibility to ensure safety. You ever consider that the safety of the protesters was at risk? Probably not.

Oh horse toejam!

In arguing against the demonstrators’ right to march, New York city and police officials cited the announcement by US Attorney General John Ashcroft that the administration had raised its terrorist alert to code orange.

This underscores the collusion between the Bush administration and local authorities in using supposed terrorist threats none of which are substantiated or specified as a pretext for suppressing public expressions of opposition to the US war drive.

This was made explicit by the appearance at the court hearing of a representative of the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York, who issued a statement *reminding* the court that the city has the responsibility of ensuring the security of the United Nations building.

The joint effort of the Bush administration and City Hall to block a march represents an escalation in a protracted crackdown on civil liberties.

Amendment II
...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms

Bush loves guns (and killing) almost as much as he loves tax cuts, so yes, The Second Amendment, so far, is still in effect.

-Only opinion, more of your proganda roadkill

You being intellectually dishonest challenging this point....I know your more intelligent than this.

On Bush and Guns:

Bush sides with the NRA and against law enforcement on every major gun safety measure including closing the gun show loophole, concealed weapons, and mandatory child safety locks.

Concealed Weapons :
Bush Signed NRA-backed Concealed Gun Bill. In 1995, Bush signed an NRA-backed bill to allow private citizens to carry concealed handguns in Texas, ending a 125-year ban on concealed weapons.
[ Dallas Morning News, 5/27/95; Oil and Gas Journal, 6/19/95 ]

Bush Signed Bill Allowing Guns In Churches :
In 1997, Bush signed a bill that allowed Texans to bring their guns into churches and synagogues unless a sign specifically barred them from doing so.
[ Texas HB2909, 75th Legislature, http://www.capitol.state.tx.us; Legislative History, Texas HB2909, 75th Legislature, http://www.capitol.state.tx.us ]

Bush Failed to Enforce Existing Guns Laws in TX :
Did Not Prosecute Felons Who Illegally Possessed Guns. The Houston Chronicle reported that under Bush’s watch, Texas authorities knew of more than 600 convicted felons who may have illegally possessed firearms, but the state did nothing to prosecute these felons.
[ Houston Chronicle , 12/9/99 ]

Gun Shows :
Bush Bowed to NRA, Failed to Lead on Background Checks Legislation . Bush claimed to support background check requirements for unlicenced dealers at gun shows, but declined to assist the passage of a state bill on that very issue. Bush claimed the federal government should solve the gun show problem, but only endorsed an NRA-supported, loophole-filled amendment.
[ Houston Chronicle, 4/27/99; Fort Worth Star-Telegram, 5/22/99 ]

Texas Leads the Nation in Number of Guns Shows.
Under Bush, Texas offered convicted felons more opportunities to purchase guns than any other state in the country through a loophole that allows people to purchase guns at gun shows with no background check. Texas led the country with 472 gun shows in 1998 -- 222 more shows than the state in second place. San Antonio police testified that 20 percent of guns convicted felons and juveniles used to commit crimes in Texas in 1998 were purchased at gun shows.
[ San Antonio Express-News, 3/18/99, 4/14/99; South Bend Tribune, 2/18/99 ]

Child Safety :
Bush Opposes Mandatory Child Safety Locks. Bush opposes mandatory gun safety locks -- instead he thinks the locks should still be voluntary.
[ Christian Science Monitor, 5/13/99 ]

Texas Received "D" in Protecting Kids from Guns.
Texas received a "D" -- the sixth worst grade in the nation -- from Handgun Control, Inc. for failing to pass laws to protect kids from guns. The national gun-control group cited Texas?failure to prohibit juveniles from owning handguns, as well as the state’s prohibition of municipal laws that are stricter than state law.
[ Houston Chronicle, 9/15/98 ]

Special Rights for Gun Makers :
Bush Signed NRA-Backed Bill Giving Gun Manufacturers Special Rights. In 1999, Bush signed legislation -- called the "gun lobby’s top priority" -- that gives gun makers special protection from being held liable for the design and marketing of their products.
[ New York Times, 6/20/99; Associated Press, 5/19/99; Fort Worth Star-Telegram, 5/18/99 ]

Texas Supplies Guns for Out-of-State Crimes :
Texas Is a Major Out-of-State Supplier of Guns to Criminals. In 1998, federal agents traced 1,176 guns used in crimes outside of Texas to Texas gun dealers. In fact, Texas ranked fifth among out-of-state gun suppliers to criminals for weapons that could be traced; guns sold through the gun show loophole were not counted in this survey.
[ Houston Chronicle, 6/13/99 ]

It's pretty obvious he loves tax-cuts and killing, the tax-cuts are a matter of public record and he's getting ready to kill a bunch of Iraqis without a clear reason for doing so.

Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace....

Bush has declared a never-ending war, so III doesn't count

-I suppose you would have said the same about FDR when Pearl Harbor was attacked

Another straw man argument, come on.....can't you do any better than this?

Give me an argument with substance please.

[weazel]

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause

Bush has made a mockery of the Fourth Amendment.

He can f**king EXECUTE you if he feels like it.

Do you STILL think we have a Bill of Rights?

-No facts here, only vehemence spewing

BUSH approves of summary executions -- At the very least, Bush is acting against international law and consecutive Presidential Executive Orders dating back to Gerald Ford, prohibiting such murder.

Since President Bush claims to be "Born Again", he cannot flaunt the law and remain consistent with Biblical principles.

At the very least, then, Bush is showing his true spiritual fruits.

At worst, Bush is acting as a dictator on the world scene.

During the Vietnam War, American forces initiated a program called "The Phoenix", in which American and South Vietnamese Special Forces soldiers routinely sought out people within villages whom they thought were "enemies of the state", i.e., secretly working for the Viet Cong.

These people were summarily executed -- without charges, without a trial, and without any evidence whatsoever.

These people were simply murdered on suspicion, or upon anonymous charges from faceless people.

Years later, investigations revealed that the greater majority of the citizens murdered under this program were absolutely, completely innocent!

Bush has authorized this type of summary executions against "terrorists" outside the United States. However, earlier reports of this new policy included people within the United States who had been deemed to be "terrorist".


Amendment V
No person shall be held ...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

Another plank in the Constitution devoured by the evil son of a squeak.

There are HUNDREDS of SUSPECTS being held without bail, without being arraigned by a judge to see if there is probable cause, without attorneys and without even a phone call to their family.

Do you think they manage the immigration rolls with more or less competence than they handled eligibility rolls of black voters in Jeb Bush's Florida?

You can't see a difference between that and pre-Bush America?

-Only more personal attacks to back up your accusations

The quote below is from the lips of Homeland Security Chief, Tom Ridge, announcing that American citizens could be designated "terrorist" if they just "lash out at your fellow citizens simply because they worship differently, or dress differently, or look differently than you".

Homeland Security Chief Ridge
October 3, 2001.

"To those Americans who would lash out at your fellow citizens simply because they worship differently, or dress differently, or look differently, than you, there is a word for such behavior -- terrorism. And it must stop."

Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft's announced desire for camps for U.S. citizens he deems to be 'enemy combatants' has moved him from merely being a political embarrassment to being a constitutional menace.

Ashcroft's plan, disclosed, but little publicized, would allow him to order the indefinite incarceration of U.S. Citizens and summarily strip them of their constitutional rights and access to the courts by declaring them enemy combatants ... Ashcroft has become a clear and present threat to our liberties.

The Black Vote

Yassuh, we be keeping Uncle Tom in his place...uppity damn ni**ers best be toeing dat line in da future.

Yassuhree Bob, we be in da good hands Boss.

Feel free to allow me to continue rubbing your nose in this pile of Bush excrement.  

[funkedup]

tinfoil helmet time