Author Topic: Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way  (Read 2038 times)

Offline Urchin

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« on: March 17, 2003, 01:25:23 PM »
Honestly.  This whole post 9-11 world seems ass-backwards.  

Let me try to formulate these thoughts into some kind of rational and coherent essay and then you guys can tell me whether or not I'm full of toejam or not.  

Fact:  Before 9-11 Americans really didn't worry to much about having open, and rather porous borders.  Illegal immigrant?  Not really a problem.

Fact:  Before 9-11 Americans really didn't worry to much about terrorists in general, or terrorists that hate American in particular.

Fact:  There really, honestly, isn't any country in the world that poses a threat to the U.S. militarily.  You could make a case for China, but as far as I know they don't have I.C.B.M.'s and they don't have much of a Navy- so a billion screaming Chinese aren't going to come invade America any time soon.

Fact:  The only REAL threat is that of a small cell of terrorists infiltrating into a city with some sort of NBC weapon, and causing a huge amount of casualties and damage.  

Fact:  (I think)  One consequence of invading Iraq (and or North Korea) will be to alienate the rest of the world even MORE towards America- isolating the U.S. diplomatically and possibly economically.  

So, to sum up, the only REAL threat as I see it is that a small group of terrorists could in fact aquire NBC weapons- most likely from a rogue state such as North Korea, Iraq, or possibly Russia (either by theft or simply buying it on the 'black market').  I can see two ways to deal with the threat.  The first way is to invade Iraq and or North Korea and secure their weapons, and maintain a sizable occupation army for an indefinate amount of time (which will likely get unpopular very quickly globally, and slightly less quickly domestically), perhaps setting up a puppet government that is friendly to the U.S.  Of course, this will have some consequences, such as an increased chance of terrorism abroad and at home (people pissed off because American troops killed their dear old grandma, etc., not to mention 'Arab solidarity' in the case of Iraq), and possibly a spreading war (in the case of North Korea, and possibly Iraq but I doubt it).  

Or, the United States could simply secure its borders.  No more open borders along the Canadian and Mexican borders.  Build a fence, or a wall, or whatever, station guards there with checkpoints at every road, sensors covering the rest of the border with patrols and helicopters patrolling the borders.  Increase security at airports at home, and especially flights in foreign countries coming TO America.  Same with ships- increase security in ports with ships headed to America, increase Coast Guard patrols along the coast.  

In other words, make it very very hard for a group of terrorists to bring a weapon of any kind into the country.  Hell, you could even make a nice list of suspected terrorists that couldn't GET into the country.  You wouldn't have to arrest them or shoot them or anything, just turn them away.  Don't even let them get on the plane, or the boat, or whatever.  

Wouldn't it be easier to nuetralize the delivery system rather than to try to nuetralize the weapons themselves?

Anyway, just kind of wanted to share that with you guys, maybe get some opinions.

Offline Yeager

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2003, 01:29:07 PM »
Its all about Jews and Muslims.  Jews and Muslims......
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline muckmaw

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2003, 01:38:54 PM »
What about the planes flying into the US from foreign nations?

Who's going to pay to upgrade and tighten the sercurity service at Guyana international airport?

We have not been able to seal off the borders from Drug runners. How can we do it against anything else?

As much as I like the idea, I just don't think you can seal such large borders.


Look at the Mexican border. Think that's sealed? Drive by Home Depot any morning, and see how many illegals are there waiting for a contractor to pay them less than minimum wage.

Offline john9001

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2003, 01:44:48 PM »
sorry , your "facts" are not facts but your opinions

Offline Sixpence

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2003, 01:49:47 PM »
Urchin, you cannot be an isolationist. Know why we sent our boys to fight so far away in Europe in WW2?....So we wouldn't be fighting it here.

You can't stop everyone from coming into the the U.S. All it takes is a small amount of poison in several water supplies to kill hundreds of thousands. Read the "Ricin,iraq, and georgi markov" post.

Listen, 9/11 is just a sign of things to come if we don't act.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Eagler

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2003, 01:54:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Listen, 9/11 is just a sign of things to come if we don't act.

and even when we do act, but at least we will have acted not not stood around and twiddled our thumbs...

It's a Brave New World ...
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


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Offline Urchin

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2003, 02:10:00 PM »
John9001:  I suppose you are right about that.  

About being an isolationist, yea, I guess I am.  Muck-  who is going to pay for conquering Iraq and occupying it for who knows how long?  We are.  Would it be more expensive or less expensive to seal the borders and upgrade security at any airport with flights to America?  I honestly don't know, I'm guessing less but I could be totally off the mark.  

We haven't sealed off the borders from drug runners because we haven't tried.  Honestly.  Put me in charge of sealing the borders, and they'd be a damn sight more tight then they are now.  Would they be completly sealed, with no 'leaks'?  It's hard to say to be honest.  It is really just a matter of money.  Put a layered barb-wire fence along the whole border, with guards/patrols/helicopters patrolling along it, and you could likely strangle the people smuggling in drugs- it just wouldn't be profitable enough.  Do the same thing with the coast, except substitute a massive Coast Guard presence for the guards and such that you would have on land.  

It seems to me that we are on a course of action that has no endpoint.  A 'War on Terrorism' doesn't have any clear goals... we don't know about all the terrorists out there and we never will.  For every Mohammed Al'Sabir (or whatever) that we kill, 3 more will take his place.  So, whats more expensive?  Killing every Arab male that *might* be a terrorist and setting up a massive 'protectorate' in the Middle East with several million troops garrisoning it, or just securing our borders?

Honestly, I'm not being a smartass or anything-  that is what I think it will come down to.  I don't hate Muslims or Arabs, or Germans or Koreans, or anyone else that dislikes America.  But if people and or nations are considered a 'threat' to our security just because they don't like us, where will it stop?  Will there be one global government with the United States at the fore, and the United States army occupying every country on Earth to keep them 'friendly'?

Offline Batz

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2003, 02:44:56 PM »
Well Urchin if you believe the Euro Trash and American left wing degenerates then we will make up the cost of getting rid of Saddam by stealing the Iraqi oil which is reported as 2nd only to Saudi Arabia.

As for the Iraq invasion causing more terror against us well we will get attacked anyway and we have been attacked anyway.

Getting rid of Saddam wont stop terrorists from attacking us but it will prevent Saddam from the possibility of supplying wmd to them. But imho more importantly what getting rid Saddam will do is show the rest of those governments who have supported terror that the US wont sit back and wait to be hit.

Regardless of what you see on TV no terror group is gonna whup up wmd in a cave some where. They cant create weaponized biological and chemical weapons to the degree that it poses a threat to thousands. The cant put together a bath tub nuke. They can certainly cause panick and terror with small attacks like the anthrax in the mail incident of the same type of fear that the sniper attacks generated. A more real threat from a terrorist is a "dirty bomb". But a terrorist like immediate effects and a direty bomb will cause panick but its effect on human life is limited and takes a long time to show up.

But we wont wake one Sunday to see a mushroom cloud over NY or chicago unless these terrorist get state support.

Saddam is an easy target and in the perfect position to be made an example of. We know hes a bad guy, a threat to his people and to his neighbors and has used wmd on Iran and his own people.

We know he has had wmd, we know he has attempted to create or acquire more. Right now he is the logical target for a pre-emptive strike.

Then we can look at a post war Iraq. Iraq is a secular, plural society. No doudt their are hatreds amoungst various groups. But Iraqis are well educated and of all the countries in the region Iraq has the greatest potential to become a true liberal domocracy.

But it will take some work. If successful and if the US can be seen as "liberators" and not occupiers to moderate muslims in the region it may help better the US position.

Theres a thousand other reasons why getting rid of Saddam is a good thing. But this type of action is a new thing for Americans. It signals a serious shift in the world order and in our relations with the world. It makes a lot of folks feel uneasy. But if it goes quick and painless then that will go along way in helping to shape a better future.

Dont believe the folks who claim "war is bad" or inhumane. The humane thing to do would have been to get rid of Saddam a lot sooner. The UN has numbers that predict the % of deaths caused by its own sanctions. The majority of these deaths are women and children. Saddam isnt using the money he earns from the oil for food program to feed his people. The UN knows this. The numbers of deaths every year caused by the sanctions excedes what is predicted to occur in the current invasion and far excedes the deaths from gulf war 1.

A medium estimate is 500,000 deaths over 10 years if we keep the satus quo. Again the Humanitarian thing to do is get rid of Saddam. This isnt the "reason" the US will get rid rid of him but it should be enough to answer the pacifists hippy "give peace a chance" degenerates.

Theres no way we can lock up our borders and keep all the bad people out. That wont happen. I am not an isolationist but I feel we should start bring our troops home from places like Europe and the Far East. Its obvious the host nations dont want them there any way.

I personally am opposed to this invasion but there a real "arguement" for it that has nothing to do with warmongering, blood for oil, Bush is Hitler in chaps or any of that left wing roadkill.

Offline Eaglecz

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2003, 02:58:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Its all about Jews and Muslims.  Jews and Muslims......


roadkill

Offline Eaglecz

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2003, 03:04:07 PM »
Urchin .... and what about to ask for that freaking reason....Whats their motivation ???
of course, you can trust, that Islam is evil


What about to educate people instead of brain washing by propaganda ?


What about to show them real world intead of sending them to kill someone or bomb them ?

Offline Batz

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2003, 03:04:52 PM »
ohh look another well thought out Euro trash arguement......

Offline Saurdaukar

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2003, 03:08:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eaglecz
roadkill


Camelshit, actually.

Offline Eaglecz

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2003, 03:09:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
ohh look another well thought out Euro trash arguement......


what a original argument

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2003, 03:15:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eaglecz
Urchin .... and what about to ask for that freaking reason....Whats their motivation ???


Their motivation is jealousy and hatred wrought by ignorance.

You will have no more luck convincing terrorists that their enemies really aren't their enemies than you would have convincing a neo-nazi that Hitler was completely full of it.

It's naive to think you can talk to them, the ones from that region of the world who know better are *NOT* terrorists. The dumbshits that are fighting out of pure ignorance *ARE* terrorists, and you will *NOT* succeed in convincing them otherwise.

Just the same as white power hate groups.

But if you think you can teach them otherwise, then by all means, you go on ahead and do so.
-SW

Offline Eaglecz

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Seems to me America is going about this the wrong way
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2003, 03:57:02 PM »
im tired of that pointless whinning about religion so eat this lames and try to imagine, that you are only one, who have problems with multi religion ethnics

IRAN.: Predominantly Islamic; mostly Shi'ite, with a minority of Sunnis. Many Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians also live in Iran.


Iraq.:  97% muslim (islám)
          over 60% siite
          less that 37%  sunite
            3% christians
            Jewish - cca 2.500


Sudan .:  islám 70%, small local religions 25%, christian 5%

China .: buddhismus, taoismus, islam, christian

Finland .: protestants (luteranske) - 85,3%

    pravoslavné (dont know how to translate this one)- 1,1%

    katholic - 1% obyvatelstva

Swiss .: 44% katholic, 37% protestants, 8,% else

France .: Katholic, Muslims, Protestants, Jewish

US.: Protestants 60,3%

      Katholic 26,2%

         Ortodox 2,0%

          Jewish 2,0%

          Islam 0,5%

          Eastern (asian) 0,7%

          atheists 8,3%



so we can say, that only few ners on this BBS have problem with multi religious community, coz world appear to be quite well mixed