Originally posted by GScholz
- I would mostly agree to that when considering the Russian sub force as a whole. However their newest boats, mainly the upgraded Akula II class are more on par with the early 90's USN boats in stealth, and (arguably) mid to late 80's in sonar capability.
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Ok, I'll agree to that assessment. I think what it boils down to then, is how much have sonar capability evolved since the 80s (alot...like obscenely much...compare with the average civilian computer if you will) and how much have stealth evolved (some, but not as much as the sonars). So, I'm going to argue that the Soviet subs (when faced with USN subs) are blind but quiet. (well, not really but you get the idea) and that is an improvement since they used to be blind and noisy.
- Yes the Alpha was a direct result of Russian planners recognizing that they could not compete with the USN in stealth in the 60's and 70's, and as such developed the stand-off doctrine of remotely detecting enemy subs I described previously. The analogy has been made that the Alpha was the Soviet navy's Mig-25.
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Yeah, when the Alpha arrived back whenever, the US was severely freaked because the Alpha could actually outrun the Mk48 torpedos. Something that changed with the Mk48 ADCAP, but still the adcap only held something like a 10 knot gap over a speeding Alpha. There were also doubts whether the original Mk48 actually could penetrate the titanium hull of the Alpha. If I remember correctly, that is why the adcap was set do detonate under the target instead of swimming straight into it like the Mk48.
- I am unsure which torpedo you are referring to?
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The 200 kts gas bubble variant that is rumored to have killed Kursk by exploding in the torpedo room.
- When comparing effectiveness (the platform's ability to fulfil its designed purpose) the USN has set the standard (100%) in all but the rarest cases. The Russians have been about a decade behind the US in sub effectiveness since the 50's and up till the last 5 years. However the gap in effectiveness between the 50's and 60's are tremendous compared to the gap between the 80's and 90's. Especially in quieting. For every year that passes the Russians are lagging behind the US in pretty much the same way as always measured in years (USN setting the standard for comparison), however in effectiveness the gap is closing ... or I should say narrowing. A late 80's US SSN is not that inferior to a mid-late 90's US SSN, as a 60's SSN to a 70's SSN. A 688 still is a very good boat, and stand a pretty good chance against an i688. The Russians are patrolling the Atlantic with ever more confidence now, practically gloating in their newfound abilities to evade detection.
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Agreed, except the last part about Russians patrolling the atlantic while laughing at the Americans.
You are absolutely right about the USN captains preferring to loose contact and try to reacquire the Russians later. The "crazy" in "crazy Ivan" comes from the Russians ending their dash abruptly and listening as the American rushed by ... dangerously close. It's funny you chose the "freight train" analogy when describing the Alpha. A Russian (retired) sub captain used the same analogy when describing a USN sub roaring past him in the 70's. The Russians use/used the "crazy Ivan" tactic in a piggyback fashion, extending on the quieter, but slower American "tail" with each leap. When they figured they had dashed far enough they went quiet and changed course, and the cat and mouse game began anew. As I said, keeping a "tail" on another submarine for a lengthy time period is VERY difficult, but the USN are successful in doing so in many cases, but not most and never all.
I was kinda confused about the crazy ivan variant you described, because it sounds awfully lot like the standard sprint and drift tactic that the USN hunterkillers use. But when you said soviet boomers did that... I dunno, the USN boomers leave port, dive and head out at 15-20kts for a while, then they go silent and dissapears...then they come back 6 weeks later. And no one can track them...not even the i688s...at least if the boomer captain knows what he is doing. It sounds weird to have soviet boomers do stuff like that because a boomer has one mission and one mission only: stay hidden. That is why the Soviets built their later generation SSBNs with reinforced hulls, so they could hide beneath the ice and come up through the ice to fire. Ice makes a he**ofalot of noise and it is much easier to hide underneath it. If you go sprint and drift with a boomer you are effectively breaking cover every time you sprint.
