Hammerhead and the FW190-D9

[Zippatuh]

All right all you LW types help me figure this out.


My aircraft repertoire is still limited to mostly the allied plane set.  I do on occasion pick something different to have fun in.  A few nights ago I took out the “Dora” (I believe that’s the nick I’ve heard anyway).  It wasn’t the first time I had flown it but the first time I had a chance at 1v1 or 1v2.  The other time was just slashing attacks at a furball that was trying to hit one of the Knights fields.  So here it goes.

While in a fight with this aircraft I had on few occasions’ co-alt initial engagements.  If at all possible I will try and take the fight vertically, not sure why it’s just the way I like to fight.  So there I am in an aircraft with amazing climb with WEP and pulling into a hammerhead after bleeding some of my opponents “E”.  I’m in the vertical, speed decreasing rapidly, reach my apex and cut throttle to get her to nose over and…  The damn thing would not come over.  It was stuck there, nose to heaven, not wanting at all to turn over.  I gave it a little stick and after what seemed forever (in the middle of a fight) I finally got it turned around and then the bullfight was on.  I wrestled it around and got control over it but not in time to get a firing solution.  I attempted this maneuver several times and each one met with the same difficulty in getting the thing to turn nose to tail.

Is there a way to get it to nose over that I’m missing or is it one of those that you never want to stall it completely for any reason?  I was thinking that maybe some sort of perverse “slip” might help but haven’t tried it yet.  If any of you have any suggestions I would appreciate it.

I’m posting in both the “general topics” and the “aircraft and vehicles” to reach the biggest audience possible.

Thanks for any help you all can provide,

Zippatuh

[Wlfgng]

Did you use full rudder and back off the throttle ?

[Karaya One]

Wlfgng has it right.

Some people add a notch of flaps (or more) during this move. Angle up, chop the throttle, smack the rudder over.

Its not as clean as it sounds. Sometimes you have to muscle the plane a little bit.

But you will know when your doing it right because the nose will just "drop" down.


[This message has been edited by Karaya One (edited 05-07-2001).]

[Udie]

I let gravity do all the work for me.  I hardly ever chop throttle doing a rop-a-dope.  I just keep the plane in the vertical and when I slow down I roll the plane into the directin it is starting to fall.  It takes some rudder and a bit of aileron to keep the plane pointed in the right direction, but it works.  This is my favorite manuver  


Udie

[Wlfgng]

yeah... (drool) when it's done right it's sooooo rewarding  

I can just imagine the look of panic on the other pilots face when they realize what's happened ... hehe

[Hammer Head]

 

Originally posted by Zippatuh:
I’m in the vertical, speed decreasing rapidly, reach my apex and cut throttle to get her to nose over and…  The damn thing would not come over.  It was stuck there, nose to heaven, not wanting at all to turn over.

Zippatuh,

There is one thing you need to remember about the control surfaces on a plane: they do not do anything unless air is flowing over them.

When doing a move at low speeds like a hammerhead, you need to have air flowing over the elevators and rudder for them to have any control over the aircraft.  Thus cutting the throttle is the WRONG thing to do.  The propeller blows air over the control surfaces so they will be able to work.  You need to have at least 50% throttle on most planes to get the elevators and rudder to work effectively.  You can do a hammerhead at full throttle, it will just take longer for you to reach the top of your climb.

Hope this helps.

hammerhd

 


------------------
"That was some of the best flying I've seen yet, right up until the point where you got killed."

[Wlfgng]

Hammerhead.. good point.

What I didn't explain clearly is this:

I use the rudder/ailerons to start the nose over.. while air is still moving over surfaces, usually just before I truly stall..

then (depending on situation) I'll chop the throttle momentarily to help it nose over and reduce the effect of the prop trying to pull me in a 'forward' direction..

once the nose is over I'm back on the throttle.

of course, all the control inputs vary depending on the exact circumstances....
I.E. AC attidude, airspeed, relative position of NME, etc.

[Xjazz]

Hammer head

I just practising HH-move with Yak in offline and I wonder why it sooo slow. This "The Drop" move was very difficult to do.

I try it with On T and Off T and I find out almost full T gives best result to me.

Hiya Yak pilots! Any hints?

BR

Xjazz

[Hammer Head]

You will get the best results in a yak by keeping the throttle setting high.  The yak has very good rudder and elevator authority so use the elevator at full deflection and the rudder to control any wing drop/direction changes desired.  Keeping the throttle set to high power will increase control authority and bring your nose around faster than allowing it to drop on it's own...

Another way to do a vertical reversal in a yak is to do a flick roll.  When in the pull up, at about 45 degrees and 150 - 200 mph, pull back on the stick hard and kick in full rudder for about 1/2 a second.  Center the rudder and you will have rolled 180 degrees very quickly.  Pull through the 1/3 loop to get you nose pointed back the way you came  

[Zippatuh]

Thanks for the information gents.

I tried the maneuver offline a few times using the suggestions provided.  I found that it was a lot easier to nose over with the throttle open instead of cut, and using full rudder.  The only problem I had with using the rudder was a few times it would “flatten” out on me.  A roll to the opposite side the rudder was engaged seemed to bring it around again pretty quickly.

I’m so used to letting the weight of the plane flip the aircraft over that I don’t normally use any of the controls.  I looked at myself last night using F3 and noticed for the first time how long the nose really is on that thing.  Explains a lot to me why it wouldn’t do it on its own.

Looks like I need to retrain myself.

Thanks again.

Zippatuh

[Saintaw]

 

Originally posted by Hammer Head:
Zippatuh,

There is one thing you need to remember about the control surfaces on a plane: they do not do anything unless air is flowing over them.

When doing a move at low speeds like a hammerhead, you need to have air flowing over the elevators and rudder for them to have any control over the aircraft.  Thus cutting the throttle is the WRONG thing to do.  The propeller blows air over the control surfaces so they will be able to work.  You need to have at least 50% throttle on most planes to get the elevators and rudder to work effectively.  You can do a hammerhead at full throttle, it will just take longer for you to reach the top of your climb.

Hope this helps.

hammerhd

Has this "wind blowing through the propeller" been moddeled in AH ?

Saw
[Mass]

[Hammer Head]

 

Originally posted by Saintaw:
Has this "wind blowing through the propeller" been moddeled in AH ?

Yup, AH models this.  Can't remember the aerodynamic name for the effect but it is caused by the propwash induced airflow over the empennage.

Try this:  Sit on the runway with the engine turned off, no forward speed.  Apply full right rudder.  Result: nothing.  Try this again and "blip" the engine to full throttle briefly.  Even with without forward speed and no differential braking you can turn the aircraft.

[Gunslayer]

Deezcamp and I kinda discussed this in another thread about flight modeling. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/009521.html
Basically though, we kinda feel like Aces doesn't fully model momentum correctly. Theoretically, when a plane reaches 0 miles an hour upward it is essentially in a weightless state for a moment. In a weightless state it should continue yawing in whatever direction it was moving before forwad momentum ended. Ie if you started to yaw right before you lost forward momentum it should continue to yaw until forward moment or airflow from falling take over again. In aces high the planes just seem to stop yawing. In a game that models momentum better like X-plane you can really see this effect well.

[Hammer Head]

 

Originally posted by Gunslayer:
Ie if you started to yaw right before you lost forward momentum it should continue to yaw until forward moment or airflow from falling take over again. In aces high the planes just seem to stop yawing.

Not exactly what we are talking about here.  Also, this statement will only hold true in a vacuum and zero g.  Also, the plane will not be at zero g, it is always being accelerated downwards at 1g when the throttle is closed and the aircraft is in the vertical plane.  You may find that the resistance of the air may account for decay of momentum even in yaw.  Remember there is a lot of sail area on a vertical tail that will be stabilising in yaw.

Anyway, we digress.  

[Jigster]

Well if you toss a football in tumbling fashion (wounded duck if you will) in a nearly straight up and down arc, the ball will decelerate upwards after leaving the hand, until it stops moving vertical where the deceleration matchs the acceleration of gravity, but will still travel slightly laterally, and will continue to tumble.

Plus as far as this goes we are not taking into consideration the engine, the weight of which starts to draw the nose over once it comes out of a strictly vertical plane via yaw. So regardless of airflow over the surface of the airfoils, the combined nose oriented weight with the much greater quanitiy of weight over the the wings and the engine, and less in the tail
would usually draw the nose over.