Author Topic: Need help from 109Gx experten! (Read 3527 times)

beet1e · « **Reply #45 on:** March 20, 2003, 08:11:19 PM »

Rgr Batz!

I was up practising again tonight. You're right - deflection shots do bugger all in a 109G10. It has to be the Hartmann style of getting VERY close, and dropping the round on target. Seems that the 30mm was designed for downing buffs, so that's what I've been going after. Getting the merge trajectory right can be tough, but see what you think of the attached effort. I forgot to fire the 30mm only at this group of B17s, and was firing the BBs in addition to the hub cannon. The first one folded as I shot the wing off, but the second one lit up but did not exhibit any damage. I welcome your comments!

Griego · « **Reply #46 on:** March 20, 2003, 08:41:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Batz
Who said trim makes you turn better?

I dont see that anywhere in this thread.

In ah above 640kmh the controls on the 109 become stiff. Eventually you will compress competely.

Trim relieves some of the stick force needed to pull out of the dive. But trim on a 109 moved the whole horizontal surface so by trimming the plane you will pull out of the dive.

In ah trim isnt important at all. Theres a feature called combat trim. This is there because of the difficulty in simulating stick forces in the game.

Also in AH trimming doesnt move a surface any further then it can go in rl. That is full deflection is full deflection. Trim doesnt let you turn better.

Trim relieve some of the stick force needed to pull out of the dive. But trim on the 109 moved the whole horizontal surface so by trimming the plane you will pull out of the dive.
Sure but you need to trim the plane before diving and hold the stick forward in dive so the trim used would work in getting you out of the dive. Is this how it should work?

Just wondering if the horizontal suface is hard to move using the stick shouldn't it be just as hard using the trim wheels. or device used to use trim.

" in ah trim isnt important at all."

If that were so then you wouldn't have to use trim in the 109 to get it to turn at speeds above 600kmh.

wetrat · « **Reply #47 on:** March 20, 2003, 10:36:22 PM »

109's don't actually compress in a dive. It's difficult to pull a 109 out of a dive in AH to simulate the stick stiffening up. The control surfaces are still effective, but in real life you'd have to be quite strong to get the stick back.

ccvi · « **Reply #48 on:** March 21, 2003, 05:07:33 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Griego
So pulling the stick should be easier than turning the wheel for trim. of couse this is MHO.

Compare:

- size of the elevator vs. size of the trim tab on the elevator
- transmission between deflection of the stick/elevator to turns of the trim wheel needed to deflect the trim tab

ccvi · « **Reply #49 on:** March 21, 2003, 05:09:57 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Batz
... But trim on a 109 moved the whole horizontal surface so by trimming the plane you will pull out of the dive.

Also in AH trimming doesnt move a surface any further then it can go in rl. That is full deflection is full deflection. Trim doesnt let you turn better.

Are you sure it moves the whole stabilizer? If so, there should be a difference between trimmed nose heavy fully pulled stick and trimmed tail heavy fully pulled stick.

Eagler · « **Reply #50 on:** March 21, 2003, 07:05:13 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
Hblair, you have a larger version of that image?

look here

http://www.bf109.com/frameset.html

GScholz · « **Reply #51 on:** March 21, 2003, 08:25:05 AM »

Thanks, I should have known

mia389 · « **Reply #52 on:** March 21, 2003, 02:26:17 PM »

Hi Beetle I like 109s as well after the P38:-). Try triming to avoid compressing. Also G2 and G10 are great climbers and can outclimb out of trouble even against a dora. check the planes stats out specially the G10 you will be supprised how fast and how hard it can climb on wep. Check stats here

Hope this helps and have films of G10 against other fighters if you would like I can send them to you

GScholz · « **Reply #53 on:** March 22, 2003, 11:20:08 PM »

I made a 1280x960 pixel version of the 109G picture and smoothed out some of the faults. If anyone is interested I can e-mail it to you (too big to post).

nopoop · « **Reply #54 on:** March 23, 2003, 12:48:20 PM »

The availability of "good" 109 photos is nonexistant. With the exception of a few shots of Black 6 there is no good photos out there. Two shots of the G10 and that's about it, along with an occasional McKenna shot. The rest are grainy poorly shot photos.

Black 6 in the desert paint isn't the best representation of a 109 in my view.

It's sad. Jeez if a GOOD still photographer would have been used during the filming of Battle of Britain in 1969 the photos he could have shot. If I remember right they had 16 up and flying for the film. Hispanos yes, but think of the photos that could have been shot. Just think of the opening scene when the 109's came through jumping fences.. Never again..

Rework of one of the few "ok" shots out there taking out all the spots and reducing the grain. 1024

beet1e · « **Reply #55 on:** March 23, 2003, 02:42:30 PM »

Thanks for all the advice, guys.

OK, this is the story so far. I tried the 109G10 with only the 20mm cannon (150 rounds at start). It doesn't last long, although the plane probably flew better than with the gondolas. But I do feel that in this configuration, the guns lack the punch that you need in a game like ours.

So then I changed the config to the 30mm hub cannon, and flew for a couple of hours. Sure, one ping is all you need to down most fighters - a P47 needed more than one, and buffs need several. Again, the ammo does not last long. BUT!!! - it's so hard to get those 30mm rounds on target. You have to get in very close, and what I found was that the bogie pilot HEARD my plane (at 100 yards) before he saw it!

Instantly, the bogie would break off... Also with the 30mm, one can forget about deflection shots. If you disagree, perhaps you could submit film to substantiate your point of view?

So I'm back with the gondolas. With this config, I can begin shooting at 400 yards, not 200 or 100 as with the 30mm.

I find that downing a buff with the gondolas on is as effective as the 30mm hub cannon config. because I can fire for longer without depleting my ammo.

The G10 does not fly as well with the gondolas, but in view of the other considerations, I think the gondola config. is the one I like best.

wetrat · « **Reply #56 on:** March 23, 2003, 03:05:20 PM »

The 109's are not meant to be spray 'n pray planes (excluding the 7mm's on the earlier 109's - but they hardly do anything anyway). They're for precision shooting. If you're a good shot and fly the G10 with 1x20mm, you can land 10 kills (without vulching) with ammo to spair. By good shot I mean shooting 20%+. If you need to spray to get kills and want to be able to get more than 3 or 4 a sortie, then the 109 isn't the plane for you.

As for the 30mm, they're very difficult to hit with. Deflection shots are possible, but it requires a significant amount of lead turning, which, if the con notices, can get you killed. As I've said before, 2x13mm and 1x20mm packs a pretty good punch if you hit a wing or tail. It's true that carrying gondolas adds a whole lot of punch, but firing at d450 or whatever it is you said is very wasteful. MG 151's are NOT very effective above 400. While it is more likely that you can kill in a snapshot if you carry the gondolas, it is more difficult to get that shot due to the reduced performance. Taking 3x20mm is great for hitting buffs or even HO jousting if you swing that way... but if you are a good shot and plan to spend any significant amount of time in a 109, you need to get used to either 1x20mm or 1x30mm.

Eagler · « **Reply #57 on:** March 23, 2003, 05:33:42 PM »

best place to fly the 109 is CT where the matchups are more historic and you can appreciate the planes ability to fly against what it was designed to fly against.

drop in there now and take the 109f with a dt and 25% fuel for a blast against the cane, p40e and spitV

for alittle more speed and less turn - grab the g2. to knock some A20's down or if the inbound ftrs aren't aces - strap on the gonds and have at it...

Griego · « **Reply #58 on:** March 23, 2003, 06:39:44 PM »

Has anyone flown the plane in iL2 forgotten battles. It seems that the trim issue in il2 is non-existent.

Just curious how to sims can be so different. dive a 109g-10 there and there is no trim issues.

beet1e · « **Reply #59 on:** March 23, 2003, 07:56:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by wetrat
If you're a good shot and fly the G10 with 1x20mm, you can land 10 kills (without vulching) with ammo to spair.

Rgr that, wetrat. But I am not looking for words - I am looking for film. You go and fly that 10 kill sortie, and post the film on here, and then I will believe it.