Blitz, Weazel, and any Frogs...

[Vulcan]

Ummm just wondering, they're reporting 2 Scuds shot down over Kuwait by Patriot missiles.

Could you please clarify for me, is the Scud (regardless of warhead) a material breach on resolution 1441?

[RRAM]

Irak has long range misiles which where declared to the UN inspectors, and destroyed according to 1441. There are still many of them which were not destroyed.

Al-Samud, I think they were called, and were perfectly able to reach Kuwait City from Iraqi soil.

Are you sure they were Scuds the missiles the patriots shot down, and not al-samud?. How do you know?.

[Vulcan]

Guess no one will know til they find the bits, but initial reports are they were scuds, and the warheads were conventional. I'd assume they calculated the type from the trajectory, and given the attacks on artillery positions within striking distance of the Kuwaiti border I doubt the coalition forces would've left any Al-Samuds alone either.

[RRAM]

Al-Samud is also a ballistic missile with ballistic trajectories. And is also a movile land to land missile, like the scud is.

Not to mention that if Iraq had Scuds, I doubt it was Kuwait the nation Saddam would attack, but Israel.

I'm not saying it was not a Scud as I simply don't know, my point is, you also can't be sure it was. Just because the media reported it was a Scud, doesn't immediately mean it WAS one.

[Dowding]

A conventionally armed and ranged scud is not covered by 1441.

I expect you to start a similar thread when the Iraqis open up with their AK-47s or start using their T-72s.

[RRAM]

Originally posted by Dowding
A conventionally armed and ranged scud is not covered by 1441.

not sure about this, Dowding, but I think it was covered by 1441. Reason why Al-Samuds were being destroyed was that their range was several dozen miles over what was allowed by the disarmement requirements of the UN resolutions, and Al-Samuds have lower range than the Scuds.

[Vulcan]

Oops Dowding, I think you've got some turd on your shoe.

[takeda]

Isn't the whole of Kuwait inside the allowed UN range? Bear in mind it's a rather small country...

[RRAM]

no, it isn't. Al-samuds were illegal according to UN resolutions,that is why they were being destroyed. And Al-Samuds could reach Kuwait City, which was well out of the range allowed for Irak's missiles.

[Dowding]

Al Samud <> Scud

A conventional Scud can reach Kuwait city. A conventional Scud, not range modified, is not covered by 1441.

Vulcan - is that right? Ha! I must have trod on you.

[takeda]

Not all Al-Samouds were destroyed, that's obvious, so they could be firing those, but the fact is that Kuwait City is only 40 miles from the frontier, so you don't need an Al-Samoud to reach it. I don't know if they have something else capable of those ranges.

So stop wondering about silly "proofs".

As Dowding said, it looks silly to start a war and whine when the enemy fires back.

[Dowding]

Scratch that, I'd confused the ranges of the Scud compared to the Al Samud. My mistake.

[Vulcan]

A conventional scud, not range modified, is 300km's, modified is 650km's. Both are a tad outside the 150 km limit.

Reports range between 3-6 scuds, being launched from across the 'bay' of kuwait. Northern British forces have been kept in biochem suits for 3 hours while the missile components were recovered identified and tested for chem or bio munitions.

So the missiles have been identified and confirmed as scud's.


Here you go dowding:
"Res. 687 (3 April 1991)  Requires Iraq to declare, destroy, remove, or render harmless under UN or IAEA supervision and not to use, develop, construct, or acquire all chemical and biological weapons, all ballistic missiles with ranges greater than 150 km, and all nuclear weapons-usable material, including related material, equipment, and facilities.  The resolution also formed the Special Commission and authorized the IAEA to carry out immediate on-site inspections of WMD-related facilities based on Iraq's declarations and UNSCOM's designation of any additional locations."

The war is legal. Saddam has revealed at least some of the weapons he has failed to destroy, declare, and so on.

On the first day he has deployed those weapons he denied he had.

Dowding, I'm gonna be nice too you, I shaved a little spot on my arse for you to kiss so you don't get any of my curly butt hairs stuck in your pretty little mouth. Pucker up sonny.

[RRAM]

Originally posted by Vulcan
On the first day he has deployed those weapons he denied he had.

No, he hasn't. According to the Pentagon, the downed missiles were al-samuds.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/20/sprj.irq.kuwait.rockets/index.html

"U.S. and Kuwaiti sources initially reported all the missiles as Scuds, but the Pentagon later said it believes they were al Samouds or some other type of missile "


As I said, It's a mistake to extract conclussions so fast from media reports. It's better to wait and see until the facts are shown to be that: facts.



Takeda I'm sure noone is whining about Irak striking back. But if Irak had done so with Scuds, then it would be evidence of them breaking the 1441 resolution, giving backup to those who say that UN isn't effective when it has to enforce its own decisions.

[Vulcan]

Interesting, I just saw a frontline interview where they positively identified them as scuds. But this was British forces, where the scuds actually came down.