Plane A vs Plane B

[MANDOBLE]

Plane A is faster at level than B at X feet.
Plane A outaccelerates plane B at X feet.
Plane A outdives plane B at X feet.
Plane A has better power/weight ratio than B at X feet.
Plane A is heavier than plane B.
Plane B outturns plane A at X feet.

With the above data, is there any chance for plane B to outclimb in a vertical zoom to plane A at X feet? (Both starting with same speed or having A speed advantage).

[Jochen]

Plane B From Outer Space.

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jochen / Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolschevismus!

[MANDOBLE]

Spits from outer space? The planes above match actual AH Spit IX and Fw190A8 characteristics at sea level.

[garrido]

Que no le des mas vueltas a la cosa, que no te van a hacer caso, a mi por lo menos no me lo hacen, sera que el 109 esta vetado?.
tu tranqui, que ya me preocupo yo por los 2 XD

SALUDOS en ZOOM CLIMb

Supongo

[juzz]

Ever notice how in a car race, the cars can really spread out the distance between them on the straights, then close right up again at the corners - yet the time difference between them stays the same?

Outzooming - or simply catching up enough to get into gun range? Hmmm...

PS: Fw 190A-8 doesn't have a better power:weight ratio than the Spitfire F.IX, at any altitude.

[MANDOBLE]

Juzz your example with cars is not a good example becaulse car B gets close A, but not overpass: car A decelerates entering the corner while car B is still at top speed, so they are closing, but then car B enters the corner and decelerates too. Distance is smaller, but speeds are lower, so the time difference is the same. Car B is not overpassing car A. Then car A exits the corner and start accelerating while B is still turning, distance increases again, time difference keeps the same.

190A8 outaccelerates Spit IX at lo level. 190A8 has more drag than Spit IX, so, the only possible reason is better power/weight ratio (it is able to accelerate its bigger mass faster than Spit while having more drag). But not only outaccelerates it, also is faster, that is, better power/drag ratio also.

And my data about both planes is as follows:
Spit IX (F, suppose the present version in AH):
1565 Hp sea level.
7800 lb loaded.
HP/W 0.195 Hp/Lb

190A8:
1970 - 2100 Hp sea level (depending on the source).
9630 lb loaded.
Hp/W 0.20Hp/Lb - 0.22HP/lb

[AKDejaVu]

One thing that the racing analogy does not take into account is that the vehicles do not have to take the same path in the air.

The lag plan will have a shorter distance to travel than the lead plane unless it is a very shallow climb.  If its a zoom.. the lag plane has a major advantage.

AKDejaVu

[Jochen]

Max hp from BMW 801D-2 in A-8 was something like 1700 hp, propably less in SL.

------------------
jochen / Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolschevismus!

[LaVa]

A-8 has alot more Form drag than a spit.

Inline aircraft are a much cleaner design and will typically preform a better vertical run.

LaVa

[MANDOBLE]

Jochen, 1750 hp is the take off power of 190A8 (so sea level) with NO WEP. 1950 - 2100 depending on the sources WITH WEP. (2100Hp using MW50, seems it was not serialized in the A8 model. 1950hp using petrol injection, the most usual WEP method).

Lava, inertia due weight/speed is also a factor, power/weight and power/drag are the other two pactors. Drag advantage is on the Spit side, but weight, HP/W and HP/Drag are on the Foke side.

[Lephturn]

Given the example at the top of the page.

No, plane B could not out-zoom plane A.

However, if plane A zooomed and plane B followed, plane B will likely complete his zoom within guns range and still win.  In this case, plane B did not "out zoom" plane A, but the difference was not enough to compensate for guns range.  In addition, if both are transitioning from level flight into a vertical zoom, plane B will be able to turn inside of plane A and cut the angle too vertical, further closing the gap.

Another factor is stall speed and low speed handling.  In the example you gave, plane B likely has a lower stall speed and handles better at low speed.  Plane A may "fall off" from his zoom at a higher speed than Plane B if it's not perfectly vertical, letting plane B get even closer.  Also, when both planes are near stall at the top of the zoom, plane B will likely be pointed at the target, and have more maneuverability.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[juzz]

Fw 190A-5: ~1700HP at s/l, 340mph.
Spitfire LF.IX: ~1700HP at s/l, 335mph.

I wouldn't be so sure that the Spitfire does have less drag than the Focke Wulfe - the Spitfire's bigger wing with two large underwing radiators = more drag too, you know.  

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 05-10-2001).]

[Jigster]

Ah but which one has more induced drag?

[Effdub]

What about Plane C?

Plane C is the one that gets the kill if plane A and B are fighting 1 on 1...  

Effdub

[juzz]

You tell me Jigster.   I can only guess that the Spitfire has a lower induced drag coefficient - but the actual force produced would be higher due to the much larger wing?