Author Topic: Didn't get to reply to blitz  (Read 759 times)

Offline Sixpence

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« on: March 23, 2003, 12:57:19 PM »
When we got involved with ethnic cleansing in ww2, was it the right thing?

When we got involved with ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, was it the right thing?

Saddam and his generals have gassed 2 million people in ethnic cleansing.When we called off hostilities in 1991, thousands of kurds were fleeing to the north on foot. Saddam send armed helicopters and rocketed and strafed them. Shocked F15 watched but were told not to engage or get involved. Women carrying their children were crying"why will you not help us?, we are human beings". It was hard to watch.

Now France, Germany and Russia could care less about these people, they just want the Iraqi $$. All these countries have an economic interest in Iraq, so they turn their back on the ones who suffer.

Ask the people in Kuwait who lost family to the Iraqi invaders. And the stories of rape and torture. Ask them if this war is needed.

The Iraqi army set 700 oil wells on fire in kuwait and they dumped 800 million gallons of oil into the gulf.

We should have took care of saddam a long time ago.
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Offline blitz

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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2003, 01:01:57 PM »
America Didn't Seem to Mind Poison Gas
By Joost R. Hiltermann
International Herald Tribune
January 17, 2003

In calling for regime change in Iraq, George W. Bush has accused Saddam Hussein of being a man who gassed his own people. Bush is right, of course. The public record shows that Saddam's regime repeatedly spread poisonous gases on Kurdish villages in 1987 and 1988 in an attempt to put down a persistent rebellion.

The biggest such attack was against Halabja in March 1988. According to local organizations providing relief to the survivors, some 6,800 Kurds were killed, the vast majority of them civilians.

It is a good thing that Bush has highlighted these atrocities by a regime that is more brutal than most. Yet it is cynical to use them as a justification for American plans to terminate the regime. By any measure, the American record on Halabja is shameful.

Analysis of thousands of captured Iraqi secret police documents and declassified U.S. government documents, as well as interviews with scores of Kurdish survivors, senior Iraqi defectors and retired U.S. intelligence officers, show (1) that Iraq carried out the attack on Halabja, and (2) that the United States, fully aware it was Iraq, accused Iran, Iraq's enemy in a fierce war, of being partly responsible for the attack. The State Department instructed its diplomats to say that Iran was partly to blame. The result of this stunning act of sophistry was that the international community failed to muster the will to condemn Iraq strongly for an act as heinous as the terrorist strike on the World Trade Center.

This was at a time when Iraq was launching what proved to be the final battles of the war against Iran. Its wholesale use of poison gas against Iranian troops and Iranian Kurdish towns, and its threat to place chemical warheads on the missiles it was lobbing at Tehran, brought Iran to its knees.

Iraq had also just embarked on a counterinsurgency campaign, called the Anfal, against its rebellious Kurds. In this effort, too, the regime's resort to chemical weapons gave it a decisive edge, enabling the systematic killing of an estimated 100,000 men, women, and children.

The deliberate American prevarication on Halabja was the logical, although probably undesired, outcome of a pronounced six-year tilt toward Iraq, seen as a bulwark against the perceived threat posed by Iran's zealous brand of politicized Islam. The United States began the tilt after Iraq, the aggressor in the war, was expelled from Iranian territory by a resurgent Iran, which then decided to pursue its own, fruitless version of regime change in Baghdad. There was little love for what virtually all of Washington recognized as an unsavory regime, but Iraq was considered the lesser evil. Sealed by National Security Decision Directive 114 in 1983, the tilt included billions of dollars in loan guarantees and other credits to Iraq.

Sensing correctly that it had carte blanche, Saddam's regime escalated its resort to gas warfare, graduating to ever more lethal agents. Because of the strong Western animus against Iran, few paid heed. Then came Halabja.

Unfortunately for Iraq's sponsors, Iran rushed Western reporters to the blighted town. The horrifying scenes they filmed were presented on prime time television a few days later. Soon Ted Koppel could be seen putting the Iraqi ambassador's feet to the fire on Nightline.

In response, the United States launched the "Iran too" gambit. The story was cooked up in the Pentagon, interviews with the principals show. A newly declassified State Department document demonstrates that U.S. diplomats received instructions to press this line with U.S. allies, and to decline to discuss the details.

It took seven weeks for the UN Security Council to censure the Halabja attack. Even then, its choice of neutral language (condemning the "continued use of chemical weapons in the conflict between the Islamic Republic of Iran and Iraq," and calling on "both sides to refrain from the future use of chemical weapons") diffused the effect of its belated move. Iraq proceeded to step up its use of gas until the end of the war and even afterward, during the final stage of the Anfal campaign, to devastating effect. When I visited Halabja last spring, the town, razed by successive Iranian and Iraqi occupiers, had been rebuilt, but the physical and psychological wounds remained.

Some of those who engineered the tilt today are back in power in the Bush administration.

They have yet to account for their judgment that it was Iran, not Iraq, that posed the primary threat to the Gulf; for building up Iraq so that it thought it could invade Kuwait and get away with it; for encouraging Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs by giving the regime a de facto green light on chemical weapons use; and for turning a blind eye to Iraq's worst atrocities, and then lying about it.

The writer is preparing a book on U.S. policy toward Iraq, with partial support from the Open Society Institute and the MacArthur Foundation.



Regards Blitz

Offline Reschke

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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2003, 01:03:06 PM »
Just to let you know what I heard here on the news radio channels this morning on my way to church. There was an Arabic gentleman speaking that I have seen on television several times who was talking about the end of the first Gulf War. He happens to be an "expatriat" from Iraq and has said that in his evaluation of the current events they are just an extension of the non-compliance of the Cease fire agreement that was signed by all sides at the end of hostilities in 1991.

So with that there would be a legal recourse for the current action that is ongoing inside of Iraq by the US, UK, Aussies, Dutch, etc... since Saddam Hussein has not complied with the original terms of the agreement. So tell me why shouldn't we go in and eliminate a tyrannical regime that will repress their own countrymen and attempt to eliminate by non-political measures any and all resistance that they may have inside their borders. This is exactly what Stalin did pre-WW2 and exactly what Der Furher did during WW2. It is also something that has sickened many of us here in the USA and it was exactly what sickened many of the veterans I know personally that fought in Europe. In order for you in Germany and the French to have the right to speak your mind and oppose any measure to bring stability to a region because it might not be popular.

I personally hope that we (all coalition members) loose as few of our troops as possible because I have many, many friends who are there now. They are all doing it because they volunteered for our Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force and they want to truly help FREE the people of Iraq from the leadership they are under currently.
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Offline Martlet

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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2003, 01:05:09 PM »
I feel like I'm watching the Iraq news conference about Iraq pushing the US "back into the swamp".

Thanks Blitch for enlightening us with your facts.

Offline blitz

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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2003, 01:10:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
I feel like I'm watching the Iraq news conference about Iraq pushing the US "back into the swamp".

Thanks Blitch for enlightening us with your facts.


Part 1
 
US Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post
December 30, 2002

High on the Bush administration's list of justifications for war against Iraq are President Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons, nuclear and biological programs, and his contacts with international terrorists. What U.S. officials rarely acknowledge is that these offenses date back to a period when Hussein was seen in Washington as a valued ally.

Among the people instrumental in tilting U.S. policy toward Baghdad during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was Donald H. Rumsfeld, now defense secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Hussein as a special presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of U.S.-Iraqi relations. Declassified documents show that Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad at a time when Iraq was using chemical weapons on an "almost daily" basis in defiance of international conventions.

The story of U.S. involvement with Saddam Hussein in the years before his 1990 attack on Kuwait -- which included large-scale intelligence sharing, supply of cluster bombs through a Chilean front company, and facilitating Iraq's acquisition of chemical and biological precursors -- is a topical example of the underside of U.S. foreign policy. It is a world in which deals can be struck with dictators, human rights violations sometimes overlooked, and accommodations made with arms proliferators, all on the principle that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Throughout the 1980s, Hussein's Iraq was the sworn enemy of Iran, then still in the throes of an Islamic revolution. U.S. officials saw Baghdad as a bulwark against militant Shiite extremism and the fall of pro-American states such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and even Jordan -- a Middle East version of the "domino theory" in Southeast Asia. That was enough to turn Hussein into a strategic partner and for U.S. diplomats in Baghdad to routinely refer to Iraqi forces as "the good guys," in contrast to the Iranians, who were depicted as "the bad guys."

A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former policymakers shows that U.S. intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defenses against the "human wave" attacks by suicidal Iranian troops. The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.

Opinions differ among Middle East experts and former government officials about the pre-Iraqi tilt, and whether Washington could have done more to stop the flow to Baghdad of technology for building weapons of mass destruction.

"It was a horrible mistake then, but we have got it right now," says Kenneth M. Pollack, a former CIA military analyst and author of "The Threatening Storm," which makes the case for war with Iraq. "My fellow [CIA] analysts and I were warning at the time that Hussein was a very nasty character. We were constantly fighting the State Department."

"Fundamentally, the policy was justified," argues David Newton, a former U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, who runs an anti-Hussein radio station in Prague. "We were concerned that Iraq should not lose the war with Iran, because that would have threatened Saudi Arabia and the Gulf. Our long-term hope was that Hussein's government would become less repressive and more responsible."

What makes present-day Hussein different from the Hussein of the 1980s, say Middle East experts, is the mellowing of the Iranian revolution and the August 1990 invasion of Kuwait that transformed the Iraqi dictator, almost overnight, from awkward ally into mortal enemy. In addition, the United States itself has changed. As a result of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, U.S. policymakers take a much more alarmist view of the threat posed by the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

U.S. Shifts in Iran-Iraq War

When the Iran-Iraq war began in September 1980, with an Iraqi attack across the Shatt al Arab waterway that leads to the Persian Gulf, the United States was a bystander. The United States did not have diplomatic relations with either Baghdad or Tehran. U.S. officials had almost as little sympathy for Hussein's dictatorial brand of Arab nationalism as for the Islamic fundamentalism espoused by Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. As long as the two countries fought their way to a stalemate, nobody in Washington was disposed to intervene.

By the summer of 1982, however, the strategic picture had changed dramatically. After its initial gains, Iraq was on the defensive, and Iranian troops had advanced to within a few miles of Basra, Iraq's second largest city. U.S. intelligence information suggested the Iranians might achieve a breakthrough on the Basra front, destabilizing Kuwait, the Gulf states, and even Saudi Arabia, thereby threatening U.S. oil supplies.

"You have to understand the geostrategic context, which was very different from where we are now," said Howard Teicher, a former National Security Council official, who worked on Iraqi policy during the Reagan administration. "Realpolitik dictated that we act to prevent the situation from getting worse."

To prevent an Iraqi collapse, the Reagan administration supplied battlefield intelligence on Iranian troop buildups to the Iraqis, sometimes through third parties such as Saudi Arabia. The U.S. tilt toward Iraq was enshrined in National Security Decision Directive 114 of Nov. 26, 1983, one of the few important Reagan era foreign policy decisions that still remains classified. According to former U.S. officials, the directive stated that the United States would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran.

Regards Blitz

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2003, 01:12:52 PM »
So you think Saddam should have been stopped then, but should not be stopped now?

Or are you just cutting and pasting?

Offline blitz

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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2003, 01:13:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
I feel like I'm watching the Iraq news conference about Iraq pushing the US "back into the swamp".

Thanks Blitch for enlightening us with your facts.



Part 2



The presidential directive was issued amid a flurry of reports that Iraqi forces were using chemical weapons in their attempts to hold back the Iranians. In principle, Washington was strongly opposed to chemical warfare, a practice outlawed by the 1925 Geneva Protocol. In practice, U.S. condemnation of Iraqi use of chemical weapons ranked relatively low on the scale of administration priorities, particularly compared with the all-important goal of preventing an Iranian victory.

Thus, on Nov. 1, 1983, a senior State Department official, Jonathan T. Howe, told Secretary of State George P. Shultz that intelligence reports showed that Iraqi troops were resorting to "almost daily use of CW" against the Iranians. But the Reagan administration had already committed itself to a large-scale diplomatic and political overture to Baghdad, culminating in several visits by the president's recently appointed special envoy to the Middle East, Donald H. Rumsfeld.

Secret talking points prepared for the first Rumsfeld visit to Baghdad enshrined some of the language from NSDD 114, including the statement that the United States would regard "any major reversal of Iraq's fortunes as a strategic defeat for the West." When Rumsfeld finally met with Hussein on Dec. 20, he told the Iraqi leader that Washington was ready for a resumption of full diplomatic relations, according to a State Department report of the conversation. Iraqi leaders later described themselves as "extremely pleased" with the Rumsfeld visit, which had "elevated U.S.-Iraqi relations to a new level."

In a September interview with CNN, Rumsfeld said he "cautioned" Hussein about the use of chemical weapons, a claim at odds with declassified State Department notes of his 90-minute meeting with the Iraqi leader. A Pentagon spokesman, Brian Whitman, now says that Rumsfeld raised the issue not with Hussein, but with Iraqi foreign minister Tariq Aziz. The State Department notes show that he mentioned it largely in passing as one of several matters that "inhibited" U.S. efforts to assist Iraq.

Rumsfeld has also said he had "nothing to do" with helping Iraq in its war against Iran. Although former U.S. officials agree that Rumsfeld was not one of the architects of the Reagan administration's tilt toward Iraq -- he was a private citizen when he was appointed Middle East envoy -- the documents show that his visits to Baghdad led to closer U.S.-Iraqi cooperation on a wide variety of fronts. Washington was willing to resume diplomatic relations immediately, but Hussein insisted on delaying such a step until the following year.

As part of its opening to Baghdad, the Reagan administration removed Iraq from the State Department terrorism list in February 1982, despite heated objections from Congress. Without such a move, Teicher says, it would have been "impossible to take even the modest steps we were contemplating" to channel assistance to Baghdad. Iraq -- along with Syria, Libya and South Yemen -- was one of four original countries on the list, which was first drawn up in 1979.

Some former U.S. officials say that removing Iraq from the terrorism list provided an incentive to Hussein to expel the Palestinian guerrilla leader Abu Nidal from Baghdad in 1983. On the other hand, Iraq continued to play host to alleged terrorists throughout the '80s. The most notable was Abu Abbas, leader of the Palestine Liberation Front, who found refuge in Baghdad after being expelled from Tunis for masterminding the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro, which resulted in the killing of an elderly American tourist.

Iraq Lobbies for Arms

While Rumsfeld was talking to Hussein and Aziz in Baghdad, Iraqi diplomats and weapons merchants were fanning out across Western capitals for a diplomatic charm offensive-cum-arms buying spree. In Washington, the key figure was the Iraqi chargé d'affaires, Nizar Hamdoon, a fluent English speaker who impressed Reagan administration officials as one of the most skillful lobbyists in town.

"He arrived with a blue shirt and a white tie, straight out of the mafia," recalled Geoffrey Kemp, a Middle East specialist in the Reagan White House. "Within six months, he was hosting suave dinner parties at his residence, which he parlayed into a formidable lobbying effort. He was particularly effective with the American Jewish community."

One of Hamdoon's favorite props, says Kemp, was a green Islamic scarf allegedly found on the body of an Iranian soldier. The scarf was decorated with a map of the Middle East showing a series of arrows pointing toward Jerusalem. Hamdoon used to "parade the scarf" to conferences and congressional hearings as proof that an Iranian victory over Iraq would result in "Israel becoming a victim along with the Arabs."

According to a sworn court affidavit prepared by Teicher in 1995, the United States "actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure Iraq had the military weaponry required." Teicher said in the affidavit that former CIA director William Casey used a Chilean company, Cardoen, to supply Iraq with cluster bombs that could be used to disrupt the Iranian human wave attacks. Teicher refuses to discuss the affidavit.

At the same time the Reagan administration was facilitating the supply of weapons and military components to Baghdad, it was attempting to cut off supplies to Iran under "Operation Staunch." Those efforts were largely successful, despite the glaring anomaly of the 1986 Iran-contra scandal when the White House publicly admitted trading arms for hostages, in violation of the policy that the United States was trying to impose on the rest of the world.

Regards Blitz

Offline blitz

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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2003, 01:15:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fatty
So you think Saddam should have been stopped then, but should not be stopped now?

Or are you just cutting and pasting?


 It is not up to the US TO DECLARE WAR ON Iraq with an preemtive strike!


Regards Blitz

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2003, 01:18:49 PM »
Seriously Blitz, those clips and the people use them sound genuinely disappointed that the US is no longer helping Saddam.

Either there is no problem with him gassing and killing both his people and others or there is a problem with it.  From the articles you link you imply you have a problem with it, and yet at the same time have a problem with stopping it?

Such a strong position you take upon that fence.

Offline Reschke

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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2003, 01:18:54 PM »
And I am sure that Germany and France did not help supply materials for the various weapons that Saddam used on the Iranians and his own Iraqi citizens? Read my post above about the "pre-emptive" strike.

Come on Blitz every nation in the world has supported some other country that has turned around and bit them square in the ass. Your arguments are circular and its quite obvious even to a little child that you can not win with someone such as yourself. So with that I hope you have a good evening in the Fatherland and wishing you were still opressed like your family members. Who were under the regime of the 1930's and early 1940's and just in case you don't want to say it I will pass along a thank you to all the veterans I know that went into France/Germany to liberate and deprogram the populace. Even though I guess they did not do their job since you all still have a brain fart wondering why you are able to speak freely about your opinions.

Good evening Blitz and thanks for reminding us that next time some European country is needing help I will firmly call out against any sort of economic aid for them. May that corpse of a continent rot. And GOD BLESS THE UK for without them the US would not have friends on that side of the pond.
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Offline sling322

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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2003, 01:22:41 PM »
I think he enjoys the feeling of the fence post.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2003, 01:33:00 PM »
Blitz, no one argues the fact that past policies were of bad judgement.

But that doesn't change what the butcher of Baghdad has done. You cannot let this person develop a nuclear weapon or any other WMD. If you let this happen, he will wage war again.

Listen, most in the Arab want him gone too, or this war would not be happening.

The arguments you make are of past judgements of previous administrations. And although the hawks(rumsfield, wolfewitz) are still there, there are those like Colon Powell who have even more influence(I can still remember the press conference where he said "Mr. wolfewitz speaks for himself").

Now you can make the redundant arguement of previous administrations decisions, but that does not change the situation at hand.

Want peace in the middle east? Well, I can tell you this, as long as saddam is in power there will be no peace.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2003, 01:46:05 PM »
Now, I don't agree with some of the conclusions that Blitz draws but why did you start this thread with the stipulation that the US has been the 'white knight' of the world, thwarting evil where ever it might be found? We know that's not true - evil people have been encouraged, armed and supported - like Saddam.

So this moral standpoint is hard to stomach - I hope you can understand that. There are more convincing reasons for conflict without resorting to the mythical 'ethical foreign policy' ploy. Foreign policy is usually only ethical when it is politically expedient; the story of Saddam, the West and Iraq is an example of that, in my opinion.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2003, 05:27:37 PM »
I didn't know I stipulated America as a "White Knight"

What I did stipulate was France, germany and russia's economic interest.

Now maybe you think the WTC attack warrants no reply, I think different.

Maybe you think sleeper cells won't do anymore damage..I think different.

Maybe you think saddam isn't trying to build nuclear weapons...I think different.

Maybe you think he won't hand these weapons over to terrorists..I think different.

Maybe you think he won't slaughter more people...I think different.

That's what I stipulate.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Lazerus1

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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2003, 06:02:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
It is not up to the US TO DECLARE WAR ON Iraq with an preemtive strike!


Regards Blitz


Why you can't understand that it's not a declaration of war, but a continuance of the first war I do not understand. There was a treaty, he violated it, we gave him 12 years to make it right. He has done everything he can to circumvene the terms of the treaty in that time period. The initial agreement was that he had 15 (fifteen!!!) days to completely disarm. That was in 1991. Those were his terms. It's obvious, even to one as thick as you, that he has violated that treaty, and 12 years of diplomacy has achieved nothing but to show the world that the UN is as usefull as a used tampon.


Disregards blitz