Author Topic: Biggest news of the war so far. (Read 1438 times)

Pongo · « **Reply #15 on:** March 25, 2003, 10:30:24 AM »

Whats Debka?

Wlfgng · « **Reply #16 on:** March 25, 2003, 10:33:52 AM »

nice sig Pongo.. too bad no one in power listens...

Toad · « **Reply #17 on:** March 25, 2003, 10:42:10 AM »

http://www.debka.com

An Israeli site, rumored to have ties to their government as in "mouthpiece" for things they want to say without it being attributable to them.

They're far from 100% accurate but sometimes they do "scoop" the others.

Just another thing I read to get a view from a different angle.

Wlfgng · « **Reply #18 on:** March 25, 2003, 10:44:38 AM »

thx for the link Toad

Dune · « **Reply #19 on:** March 25, 2003, 10:45:10 AM »

That's why not having the 4th Inf Div and 1st Arm Div is hampering the efforts. These two div's were supposed to enter through Turkey and open a 2nd front in the north. Also included were the 2nd and 3rd Armored Cav Rgt's. Our main tank-heavy units are still on the boat.

This is a list of the units who are supposed to deploy: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat_030127-alert.htm

There is a hell of a lot of armor trying to find a place to come ashore right now. Units that are, IMO, needed. The 3rd ID and the 1st MEF should be passing these units forward for the push on Baghdad and pacifying their own rear areas.

Toad · « **Reply #20 on:** March 25, 2003, 10:50:24 AM »

Yeah, Dune. I agree.

But in another thread about tactics I said I'd hold my peace and I will.

That does not exclude me posting a "told ya" when it appears appropriate.

So, I'm reading, watching and waiting, like everyone else. And trying to keep my lip zipped.

Raubvogel · « **Reply #21 on:** March 25, 2003, 10:52:32 AM »

I think you folks are forgetting about what a force multiplier our technology and weapons are. I think we have more than enough force in place to do the job.

Toad · « **Reply #22 on:** March 25, 2003, 11:01:25 AM »

Raub, even you have to admit that the Longbow strike didn't go at all the way it should have. That's our technological leading edge in the helo department. Of course, it could have been tactics and not technology.

Latest BDA I heard was 4-5 tanks and a similar number of light armored vehicles knocked out by 3 dozen Apaches.

Dune · « **Reply #23 on:** March 25, 2003, 11:02:53 AM »

Yep. Look at a basic list of the units involved with the 1st Gulf War (over 550,000 troops):

Quote

The XVIII Airborne Corps, under Lt. Gen. Gary E. Luck, held the left, or western, flank and consisted of the 82d Airborne Division, the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), the 24th Infantry Division (Mechanized), the French 6th Light Armored Division, the 3d Armored Cavalry, and the 12th and 18th Aviation Brigades.
The Vll Corps, under Lt. Gen. Frederick M. Franks, Jr., was deployed to the right of the XVIII Airborne Corps and consisted of the 1st Infantry Division (Mechanized), the 1st Cavalry Division (Armored), the 1st and 3d Armored Divisions, the British 1st Armored Division, the 2d Armored Cavalry, and the 11th Aviation Brigade.
Three commands held the eastern one-third of the front.

Joint Forces Command North, made up of formations from Egypt, Syria, and Saudi Arabia and led by His Royal Highness Lt. Gen. Prince Khalid ibn Sultan, held the portion of the line east of Vll Corps.

To the right of these allied forces stood Lt. Gen. Walter E. Boomer's I Marine Expeditionary Force, which had the 1st (or Tiger) Brigade of the Army's 2d Armored Division as well as the 1st and 2d Marine Divisions.

Joint Forces Command East on the extreme right, or eastern, flank anchored the line at the Persian Gulf. This organization consisted of units from all six member states of the Gulf Cooperation Council. Like Joint Forces Command North, it was under General Khalid's command.

Here is a map of the Coalition advances, it just shows the huge difference: http://www.3ad.org/ds_2bde/images/dsopmap.jpg

Raubvogel · « **Reply #24 on:** March 25, 2003, 11:08:52 AM »

Toad, I chalk that up to poor tactics. Mostly to poor scouting. There should have been a scout team checking out **** like that before the main force ran into that ****storm.

Toad · « **Reply #25 on:** March 25, 2003, 11:21:33 AM »

I do think the Apache tactics were piss poor.

However, I think you can chalk it up to a high degree of overconfidence that has been a characteristic of this mission from the jump-off and from the very highest level of command right on down to the actual fighters.

I have no doubt we will win. None whatsover.

There's a trade-off between blood and gold. Given the way this country spends gold, I'm not opposed to spending whatever gold it takes to absolutely minimize the cost in blood. We spend it like we had it even when we don't. So no biggie there.

We took 6 weeks to beat the doo-dah out of them from the air before we uncerimoniously threw them out of Kuwait.

I see no reason, now that this has started, to be in some big hurry.

But, nobody called me to ask for tips and I'm trying to keep my lip zipped.

And not doing very well at it, am I?

Wlfgng · « **Reply #26 on:** March 25, 2003, 11:30:11 AM »

Quote

I think you folks are forgetting about what a force multiplier our technology and weapons are. I think we have more than enough force in place to do the job.

I think you're counting too much on this, like many US planners did. Too much TV, Rambo etc

technology doesn't win wars that last longer than a few weeks.
simplicity, numbers, training.. that wins long wars.

although , much like Toad, I think we'll win this hands down.. just depends on how many lives are lost in the process

Raubvogel · « **Reply #27 on:** March 25, 2003, 11:59:16 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wlfgng
I think you're counting too much on this, like many US planners did. Too much TV, Rambo etc

technology doesn't win wars that last longer than a few weeks.
simplicity, numbers, training.. that wins long wars.

This is why we have the National Training Center and the Joint Readiness Training Center, along with the training areas in Europe. We train in these areas regularly, and they battle plan regularly. They know what to expect. Technology DOES win wars that last longer than a few weeks. Even more importantly, logistics win wars that last more than a few weeks. How long before the Iraqis are unable to get food and water to their troops? Hell, 90% of the ones that surrendered in the Gulf War were like little kids at Xmas when we handed them an MRE and a bottle of water. (Actually had one ask me for a certain MRE by name, funny story;))

Vermillion · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2003, 12:10:04 PM »

I don't keep up on Army force structure, so excuse my stupidity. I was always more of an Air Force guy.

I read somewhere that the US army has approximately 10 full sized divisions now since the cutbacks during the Clinton Administration.

How many heavy armored divisions do we still keep active? I noticed that the 1st Armored Division is listed, so what other ones do we still have.

And do our mechanized infantry units (ie like the 3rd ID) contain the same basic force structure of the early 90's, or have they beefed them up with more pure armor, or scaled back the armor contingent?

I'm all for "light" units, rapid reaction forces, and special Ops, but when push comes to shove (like now) nothing beats heavy armor.

Wlfgng · « **Reply #29 on:** March 25, 2003, 01:11:25 PM »

MRE's aren't high-tech