Author Topic: Goostepping with Bush.... (Read 1046 times)

GRUNHERZ · « **on:** March 25, 2003, 07:24:45 AM »

SaburoS wrote:

"I'll give you a simple comparison (and no, I am not comparing Bush to Hitler):
Who is the most patriotic and loves his country most of the following examples?
1) The German citizen that goosestepped in unison and followed Hitler's orders blindly?
2) The German that defied his orders?

Maybe things aren't exactly as you see them."

I have seen this type of argument made over and over and over again by the people opposing american policy on Iraq. The main assumption being that pro war people arent thinking freely for themselves in their support of the war, while the anti war types are in their opposition.

My questions to the anti-war crowd:

Who is blindly goosetepping with bush? Why do you automatically assume that the folks who agree with the war are blindly goosetepping and have not made up their own minds that the war is the right thing to do?

On the other hand why do you automatically assume that the anti-war crowd has in fact thought about the issue and decided on their own that it is wrong as opposed to those who support the war?

And:

Were the people who supported the 911 war in afhanistan also blindly gossetepping with Bush? Please dont conveniantly forget that there was a robust and vocal antiwar movement against that attack as well....

Dowding · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2003, 07:45:28 AM »

Quote

Please dont conveniantly forget that there was a robust and vocal antiwar movement against that attack as well....

I'm calling this one. There was broad international agreement and support for action in Afghanistan. Even the Pakistanis let the US et al use their country as a base. I don't remember any protests in my country.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2003, 07:59:33 AM »

Not true at all.

There was the same gang saying the same things how we must let the UN handle it, how we cant do it because afghan civians will die, how the USA is hypocritical in acting becuse they helped Osama in 1980s, how Bush had ties to taliban, how it was a corporate war for caspian sea oil pipes, how the USA gave Taliban money, all in an attempt to stop us acting.

Since I doubt you will take my word for it how about this article from a noted antiwar group?

http://www.iacenter.org/nowardemos.htm

And this just to help refresh your memory:

http://pd.cpim.org/2001/oct07/2001_oct07_no%20war.htm

And just for the hell of it:

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2001/468/468p15.htm

You dont seriously deny these facts do you?

Now that we have established the fact that there was also a vocal antiwar movement by many of the same groups, Not In our Name, ANSWER etc during the afghan war, please focus your energy in answering my questions in the first post.

ra · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:02:05 AM »

Quote

I don't remember any protests in my country.

There was not enough time to organize them. This war in Iraq happened in slow motion, so everyone opposed to it, including Hussein, had plenty of time to organize against it.

ra

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:03:35 AM »

ra not true read the links I posted...

Dowding · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:09:07 AM »

Firstly, your questions assume I've made sweeping comments comparing pro-war people to goose-stepping Nazis. I haven't. Neither did I post the quote you use at the start of thread. So, taking both those points into consideration, there is nothing relevant to me in your post.

Secondly, anti-war groups are bound to protest against war... that's kind of like their raison d'etre. From that shaky common ground between the two conflicts you go on to make some very unsafe assumptions. So there were millions of people on the streets of London protesting against Afghanistan, were there? You had condemnation from France and Germany over the action?

The protests against this war were UNPRECEDENTED. You can't escape that fact, no matter how much you would like to.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:11:48 AM »

Then why even enter the thread with your first post... You have had no trouble disagreeing and arguing with me before, why be so timid now?

So again please feel free to answer my questions...

NUKE · « **Reply #7 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:15:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
I'm calling this one. There was broad international agreement and support for action in Afghanistan. Even the Pakistanis let the US et al use their country as a base. I don't remember any protests in my country.

I remember lots of protests in your country against the war in Afghanistan.

Quote

Thousands of anti-war protesters have marched through London in a demonstration against the military air strikes on Afghanistan.
The CND-led march from Marble Arch to Trafalgar Square reflected growing concern in some quarters over the US-led bombardment, organisers said.

War is not the answer, you can't fight fire with fire

Darren Johnson,
Green Party
Police said about 20,000 people had taken part in Saturday's demonstration, which followed the sixth night of US air strikes.

Campaigners also staged a march in Glasgow, while demonstrations against the strikes also took place across Western Europe. Earlier, anti-war protests were held in Australia

BBC

Dowding · « **Reply #8 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:15:40 AM »

Because, while the rest of the post dealt your perception of someone else's posts, your last paragraph was a distortion of the facts.

Dowding · « **Reply #9 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:19:39 AM »

NUKE, I see mathematics is not your strong point.

20,000 does not equal 1.5 million, I'm afraid.

20,000 is shreck all. More than 20,000 marched to keep fox hunting legal. Hell, there were that many protesting for an end to the bombing against Serbia during the Kosovo crisis.

So, with those facts established, it is hard to spin the line that there was even an iota of parity between the protests over Afghanistan, compared to Iraq.

In terms of a physics experiment, call the normal marches, a few thousand strong, 'background'. The march held in London on February 15th was a peak of huge amplitude. It was repeated across the world. It's definitely enough to write a paper on and get published. See what I'm trying to say?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #10 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:20:44 AM »

Are you saying this was a distortion of the facts?

Were the people who supported the 911 war in afhanistan also blindly gossetepping with Bush? Please dont conveniantly forget that there was a robust and vocal antiwar movement against that attack as well....

Have you read the links I posted or are you conveinantly ignoring them out the obvious error of your first response - where you made no mention of magnitude or anything else just your belief that there was no widespread international opposition to the afghan war.

NUKE · « **Reply #11 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:23:06 AM »

More non-existant anti Afghanistan war protests:

http://www.iacenter.org/o27_rept1.htm
October 28, 2001--On Saturday, people in 75 cities throughout the U.S. demanded an end to the U.S. war against Afghanistan, as the mounting civilian destruction in Afghanistan causes support for the bombing campaign to crumble. They were joined by thousands more in 40 cities in 20 other countries.

http://www.uniservity.net/clubs_RenderPage.asp?clubid=3591&pageid=1753
Like all imperialist wars, it is waged with disregard for the innocent population being murdered in the attacks against the declared enemy. The bombing of Afghanistan is as immoral as the attack on the Twin Towers, and is no less reprehensible as an act of terrorism.

NUKE · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:24:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
NUKE, I see mathematics is not your strong point.

20,000 does not equal 1.5 million, I'm afraid.

20,000 is shreck all. More than 20,000 marched to keep fox hunting legal. Hell, there were that many protesting for an end to the bombing against Serbia during the Kosovo crisis.

So, with those facts established, it is hard to spin the line that there was even an iota of parity between the protests over Afghanistan, compared to Iraq.

maybe logic is not one of your strong points. 20,000 ( only one example) is more than the zero you remember.

Maybe you are implying that unless there are 1.5 million people involved, it is not a protest.

Dowding · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:39:23 AM »

Logic? I didn't say they weren't any. I said I didn't remember any. And my whole point is that they were minor in size and frequency, and miniscule compared to the recent protests. They didn't stick in my memory for that very reason.

Quote

Were the people who supported the 911 war in afhanistan also blindly gossetepping with Bush? Please dont conveniantly forget that there was a robust and vocal antiwar movement against that attack as well....

Your comparison is not borne out by the facts. The anti-war movement was nowhere near as big or encompassing as the latest protests. You imply the opposite. You use the presence of an anti-war movement in both cases as proof of parity to suit your own particular argument. That is distortion, my friend.

NUKE · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2003, 08:42:30 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
Logic? I didn't say they weren't any. I said I didn't remember any. And my whole point is that they were minor in size and frequency, and miniscule compared to the recent protests. They didn't stick in my memory for that very reason.

Dowding, you are amazing. You posted that you didn't remember any protests, to which I mearly replied that I remembered a lot.

You then sqeal like a stuck pig for some reason, and respond with an insult to me and some side-stepping about numbers.