Author Topic: Women in war (Read 2723 times)

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #90 on:** March 27, 2003, 04:55:25 PM »

Your ass?

My screensaver is that animated picture of your tongue.... What? Why is everyone looking at me like that?
-SW

Hangtime · « **Reply #91 on:** March 27, 2003, 04:59:33 PM »

in the modern military, soldiers are tool users. they use weapons, not hand to hand.

should a soldier come up empty, facing a still armed opponet, he'd likely surrender.

or she.

as tool users, a female can get the job done as well as a man.

as a pack animal or a hand to hand combat opponet, they come up lacking.

just observations. don't have a clue as to veracity.. or if it's even a point for the discussion.

Suave · « **Reply #92 on:** March 27, 2003, 05:11:19 PM »

An infantry man is a pack animal and bunker building ditch digger, that is what he does when he's not sleeping, eating or on watch . You march, and when you stop, you dig, the longer that you are stopped, the deeper you dig, and you carry everything, food, water, iv bags, empty sand bags, mortar tubes, base plates, ammo and sometimes your buddy .

If you're an artilleryman you have a little better standing with the god of war, you get to ride on trucks. But when you stop you still have to dig holes and shove a cannon into place, then you get down to the business of slinging 98lb projectiles around. And St. Barbar help you if the enemy can fly .

Saintaw · « **Reply #93 on:** March 27, 2003, 05:13:25 PM »

ROFL

(And I find fishy that Funked knows so much about women...)

SC-Sp00k · « **Reply #94 on:** March 27, 2003, 05:25:03 PM »

I do not agree with women in Infantry roles however there is no Gender bias when it comes to courage.

As an operational Police Officer, I have worked beside many female officers and been in more than a few knock down fights in pubs with them at my side.

Ive seen skinny underweight girls put up every bit as much of a fight as any bloke I worked with. Ive seen blokes hesitate or simply back off when the decision was clear that it was a hands on job.

Violent demonstrations, arrests of violent offenders, Police v Civvie fights etc etc. I can name only a few of both genders who failed when it came to putting their bodies on the line.

But I can think of no time in 14 years where I thought that the woman beside me was any less interested in protecting my prettythang than any bloke standing beside me.

My concerns on females employed in a Combat Infantry unit have little to do with the females themselves, but the males in the unit.
As Laz pointed out. Males will do stupid things in the mistaking belief that the females need protecting. Ive seen this myself more than once.

As for the females ability to do the job however, I have no concerns that they can do it every bit as good as the men.

The consequences of War are dirty and filthy. If a female combatant (and I include REMF's in this as well) accepts those consequences and is still prepared to stand alongside her male comrades and bear arms against an enemy.

Then she has as much right to do so as any male.

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #95 on:** March 27, 2003, 05:30:17 PM »

That's what I been tryin' to say Sp00k!

You just organized it a lot clearer and to the point.
-SW

Yeager · « **Reply #96 on:** March 27, 2003, 05:40:45 PM »

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003132548,00.html

Suave · « **Reply #97 on:** March 27, 2003, 05:42:25 PM »

Women make fine MP's they can drive a humvee and operate a grenade launcher or 50cal as good as anyone.

In my REMF years I was honored with serving with some very fine female officers, even a west pointer. I trusted their judgement and would've followed them to the edge of the known universe .

But combat arms is very very labor intensive, and when you're humping it, or running to a pick up, you have to pick up the slack for anybody whos dragging ass, sometimes that means carrying extra, sometimes that means carrying a person . It's cliche but true, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link . I was the weak link once, think all cherries are the weak link untill the blisters on the hands and feet are replaced with callouses and the toenails fall off .

Pongo weren't you a leg ? Can I get a witness ?

midnight Target · « **Reply #98 on:** March 27, 2003, 06:34:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Airhead
Kanth, hate to burst your bubble but males of any animal species, although generally bigger and stronger, will not harm a female of the same species. It's a genetic code thingie. It extends to humans, also- we're predisposed not to harm females, but instead protect them. That's why the men unquestionably went down with the ship when the Titanic sunk. That's why the males will fight to protect the females of almost any species. It's not human nature, it's mother nature. To try to defeat this basic natural law by presenting it as a civil rights issue is laughable.

Basic natural law...

Like having the woman stay home while the man goes out to hunt.. only makes sense right? I mean how do you procreate if you get dead killing that mammoth? So it must be natural for men to be the breadwinner too!

Fire all the women folk and make em go home!

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #99 on:** March 27, 2003, 06:40:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
So it must be natural for men to be the breadwinner too!

Fire all the women folk and make em go home!

Airhead did not say that. I did not say that. I don't believe Lazs said that.

I do believe you are the only one drawing this conclusion.

Radical statements make great headlines, that's about it.
-SW

Hangtime · « **Reply #100 on:** March 27, 2003, 06:42:49 PM »

Quote

But combat arms is very very labor intensive, and when you're humping it, or running to a pick up, you have to pick up the slack for anybody whos dragging ass, sometimes that means carrying extra, sometimes that means carrying a person . It's cliche but true, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link . I was the weak link once, think all cherries are the weak link untill the blisters on the hands and feet are replaced with callouses and the toenails fall off .

yup. seemed so to me. i never served with any females.. before my time. but as i sit and think about the work i did for unca sam, there's no doubt a female could have fulfilled all the basic reqirements for a meal card. (mos 62M20, served in a maint battalion)

11Bravo would be a whole diffrent story. combat arms ain't service and evac.. but as those guys n' gals in the 509th discovered, there are days when the fine print on the work order get underlined.

somebody sure screwed the pooch nin the desert that day.

miko2d · « **Reply #101 on:** March 28, 2003, 08:36:42 AM »

Women in general are different than men - true. That means that on any given quality their mean value and even standard deviation of teh distribution may be different from men.

Which only means that at every particular point on capabilities scale you may find less women than men.
But it still means that at any point you may have some women that exceed most men and equal to whatever requirements are facing them.

Making all women participate in man's activities in the same proportuions - ceratinly not. But allowing some woman to prove they have the same abilities as men - why not?

miko

lazs2 · « **Reply #102 on:** March 28, 2003, 09:02:04 AM »

as i pointed out miko... it does far more harm than good... I can't see where it does any good whatsoever. I think that to allow women in combat would mean a major readustment in the way civilian women are treated. How would you know if the woman who slapped you at the bar was a combat marine or not? certainly you would be justified in disfiguring her with a couple of short jabs to the nose and jaw.

A man married to a combat marine female could hardly be arrested for beating the crap outta her. Rap "singers" would have whole new audiences for their lyrics.

Millons of Women who lacked testosterone and were not the least interested in being a combat trooper would be subject to the draft. People would by neccessity have to be desensitized to brutality to women.

I don't think that is a good thing.

There are things about gender that trancend equality... if you can't see that then you need to get out of the books and get out more.
lazs

miko2d · « **Reply #103 on:** March 28, 2003, 09:25:08 AM »

lazs2: I think that to allow women in combat would mean a major readustment in the way civilian women are treated.

We should have though of that before we allowed all that emansipation and women literacy to happen.

Anyway, you are way off the mark here - or way too late. I am not proposing to increase number of women in US military. There are plenty of them in already. Quite an opposite. I propose to use the same standards for women as for men - which will result in drastic reduction in the number of women in our military, while allowing the principles of freedom of choice and equality of opportunities to operate.

There are things about gender that trancend equality... if you can't see that then you need to get out of the books and get out more.

That may be true. But in whatever little I did get out, I've met some women military, mostly Israelis. In fact I am working with an Israeli woman who would most sertainly kick most of our tulips and outhink us too - being PhD. in Math, despite women in general being the weaker sex and not as intelligent, especially at the higher end of the scale and less capable in math-related disciplines.
Maybe you should pay less attention to books and statistical everages and meet more real people - especially people at the top of the capabilities.

miko

lazs2 · « **Reply #104 on:** March 28, 2003, 11:58:34 AM »

miko... I am in no way saying that women should not be in the military if they wish to. I am talking about combat roles.

I am also willing to bet that even a beat up old 53 year old like me would have no trouble beating the crap out of your israeli female friend. I also have no doubt that she is much brighter in the subjects she has studied than I would be in them. she may be much brighter than me overall... that doesn't bother me a bit... I never claimed any genius status.

and mt... gender is not race. if you continue to link them then you deserve to have your arguements trivialized.

kanth... I believe you are wrong in throwing all the women to the wolves so that a few freaks can disrupt our combat effectiveness. And yes I know that everyone has some amount of testosterone... Do you know what happens to women who raise their levels to those of mens?
lazs