Author Topic: Those darn airline unions....... (Read 1132 times)

Bodhi · « **Reply #30 on:** March 30, 2003, 11:36:04 PM »

Just a bit of an FYI...

I was given the ax in October of 2001 by Delta Air Lines. 7 Years of "above and beyond" service out the door, while many rank and file employees with wonderous union mentality continued to do work like monkeys and retained their jobs because of seniority. I was called back once, only to be laid off 6 weeks later again, around the same time the friggin bonuses for execs were being handed out. Now the beauty of all this was my last paycheck was garnished over 75% because of an overpayment Delta believed it made in 1998. I never saw the money in 98, and had it stolen from me in 2001. I assume it went into the fat cats pockets, but nonetheless, I never saw it, and was forced to work a late night job doing underwater repairs at Disney to make ends meet, as working as a restorer for a certain museum in Kissimmee was poorly compensated.

What gets me the most out of all this, though, was Delta's nice little "Good Bye" letter. It basically said that they regretfully had to let me go, but the acts on September 11th forced their hands. Amazing, poor management sets the airline up for financial woes, and they take advantage of emotional appeal at that time. Disgusting, absolutely disgusting.

The current management team was praised when they came on board, almost anything was better after the jerk Ron Allen and 7.2 or whatever the hell the cost per mile reductions were called that only included customer benefits, decent equipment, and line employees salarys... defintitely not the fat cats. Well, guess what Toad, we got it in the bellybutton worse this time, and the beauty of it is, this time, Mullin, did it with our blessings. THat man has raped Delta so bad, and it's customers and employees, there is no hope for its continuance as a major.

Our best hope of recouping our personal losses is just getting the timing right on selling short a few 100000 shares of Delta stock so that when they file bankruptcy we can have something to walk away with.

I will not fly Delta anymore. I absolutely refuse and ensure that I go out of the way not too. Wishing you luck Toad, as a fellow employee, and friend. See ya on the other side.

Mini D · « **Reply #31 on:** March 31, 2003, 12:12:09 AM »

Toad,

I did not mean to imply that you were overpaid nor underpaid. I'm not going to argue about the merits of your income. I'm saying that this thread is comparable to announcing how difficult life is in America compared to Iraq.

I wish you the best of luck however this works out. And I ask you to take a look around you and, once again, count your blessings.

MiniD

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #32 on:** March 31, 2003, 12:22:15 AM »

The surefire way to fix an airline is to let the employees and the unions own the business and have a controlling interest in it! This way as majority owners, the emplyees could do anything and hire anyone for management they wanted and set their salaries as low as neccesarry. This trype of airline would never go bankrupt!!!!

anonymous · « **Reply #33 on:** March 31, 2003, 04:20:03 AM »

toad jetblue dont count they dont have to pay any bills on aircraft for what like 3 years? southwest is going to get worse as the founder isnt running the show anymore. when the beancounters start running the business it always goes bad, selling aircraft you own to leasing company and leasing aircraft back makes good returns when business is good when business is bad it kills you. one of big things saving northwest right now is they own so many of their aircraft outright as opposed to leasing them. also declaring bankrupt is easy out for management. go bankrupt and reneg with union after you go bankrupt. is it american or united that has like 2 billion in cash and they warning about declaring bankrupt? what a joke. greedy management is 1000 times more responsible for killing airlines than employee union and usually i dont care for union. look at northwest with chechhi and friends, they come in to airline with tons of cash and no debt by buying several billion dollar company with 400 million in cash and lots of loans. take cash of company to pay off loans, run up new debt to line their pockets. im sure you know the story. best of luck to you dude.

anonymous · « **Reply #34 on:** March 31, 2003, 04:24:10 AM »

oh by jetblue not counting i meant when comparing business cost. they dont have to pay any bills on aircraft for like 3 years. also they hiring new pilot which means lower salary totals. "its easier to start an airline than it is to keep one going" is the quote.

Dowding · « **Reply #35 on:** March 31, 2003, 04:39:22 AM »

My friend is training to be a pilot for Atlantic Airlines (or is Air Atlantic - I never can get it right). He sent off to dozens of airlines for a place, and only succeeded with this one. He already had a private pilot's license, a first in Biochemistry etc. A clever, well motivated guy who was captain of the water polo team for the uni.

He spends 90% of his time washing planes and cleaning toilets and mowing lawns and works 7 days a week with 2 weeks holiday a year. Although, 2 years into it he get more and more flying time, I think if your heart wasn't in it you could never stay the course.

Toad · « **Reply #36 on:** March 31, 2003, 05:48:10 AM »

Well Deja, perhaps you've missed the anti-union/pro-management threads. If you did, Grun's post in this one will give you some of the flavor.

So this thread isn't about my situation at all, although twice you've tried to frame it that way.

It's about how great "management" really is. These guys are Grun's hero's and and the hero's of a few others.

Some people see Unions as the ruination of American business. I think the greed of the Airline Management teams... with a very few notable exceptions (like maybe ONE) clearly shows where the root cause of the problem lies. With people like these stealing from the taxpayers and the employees (see Bodhi's post), it's no surprise you get Unions that will fight for every nickel they can get. Pretty clear which comes first, Unions or Bad Management.

How do you feel about the exact amount DAL got from the American taxpayer in "relief for 9/11 to help DAL survive" going right into an "iron lock box" to guarantee the top executives compensation? Do you think that's what Congress meant to happen with the $150 million they gave them?

I've had a good career; I'm not crying.

But these guys are simply thieves on the order of the Enron bunch. And they are typical of almost every major airlines management team.

And as I said, that's the point of this thread. I've been told here many, many times that LABOR (union) is the problem.

Really? How can anyone read this stuff and not see where the true problem lies?

But they can't.... look at Grun.

Toad · « **Reply #37 on:** March 31, 2003, 05:53:46 AM »

Grun, go ahead and use UAL as your example of unions owning and airline and screwing it up.

First though, you better read up on UAL history with respect to management and profit/loss. The employee buyout happened because Steve Wolf ran the airline into the ground while taking multi, multi millions for himself. The employees made the buyout happend to get rid of Wolf and get a new management team.

"Wolf" you say? Yeah, Wolf... with his henchman Gangwhal. The same two guys that just ran US Air into bankruptcy while giving themselves $36 million to split right about the time they declared.

You want the roots of the UAL bankruptcy? Look at Wolf and Gangwhal.... they are responsible for that one AND US Air. And while you're researching, make notes of how much they paid themselves to leave UAL.

Wolf's well into triple-digit millions for ruining two airlines.

Same story will shine out of AA if they file this week. You'll find the top execs have made sure their double digit millions are firmly secured just like DAL's have done.

There's your fabulous managers.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #38 on:** March 31, 2003, 06:01:32 AM »

Toad the buyout happend years ago, as owners the unions and emplyees had the responsibility to pick and control management and they airline still went bankrupt. Some millions extra to to excecutives is bad, no doubt, but I think you are being foolish if you are proposing that that was the main cause of the airline bankruptcies.

Toad · « **Reply #39 on:** March 31, 2003, 06:31:53 AM »

Like I said, do some research on UAL prior to the buyout. Wolf's "leadership" was kiling 'em and the buyout costs put them father in the hole. And the whole point of the buyout was to get rid of the guy that was killing them... Wolf.

They were recovering under the buyout leadership but then there was this little thing called "9/11". It sort of hammered all the airlines.

Still, Thank COD the government was around to pass out millions to the airlines after 9/11 because otherwise, the Senior Execs pensions might be in jeopardy!!!!! This way, it's only the rank and file everyday American worker that will lose his pension. Whew! That was a close one, eh?

$150 of US taxpayer money to Delta, Grun. $150 million goes directly to the execs as bonuses and retirment funding. Thanks for contributing to Mullin's retirement, Grun. He desperately needed your contribution.

Like I said, which comes first, Bad Management or Unions?

.... and before you start, I'm on record several times as saying

"the only thing WORSE than a Union (because they are pretty bad)

is NO Union." (because Managment is even a tad bit worse than Union leaders.)

You have to have the Unions to provide some sort of balance against thieves like these.

Think Enron was the end of it? Think again. And the evidence is posted in this thread and there'll be more when you find out what the AA execs gave themselves for their new bankruptcy.

Mini D · « **Reply #40 on:** March 31, 2003, 10:31:47 AM »

The company I work for is non union. Its well ran and the employees are decently compensated. It can work without either being corrupt.

There are unions that have ran companies into the ground or even prevented them from starting up. There are Execs that have done the same.

Unions were developed when people working in the steel mills worked 12 hours 364 days a year making barely enough to survive. I find it incredibly rediculous when someone tries to tout their need in a skills related proffession.

And Toad.. you have presented this on a personal level. You've also presented it from a purely defensive posture. Take a step back and ask yourself another questions: How many of the people here are in a union?

Make sure you are defining a union as something that fights for the rights of the working man... and not something the that ensures a three car garage for the educated man.

MiniD

Toad · « **Reply #41 on:** March 31, 2003, 10:34:52 AM »

Nah, I'll just leave it as I presented it.

They're management crooks. It's documented.

Even McCain is hammering them in the Senate.

People like that are the reason workers form Unions. Not much more to be said.

Mini D · « **Reply #42 on:** March 31, 2003, 10:39:19 AM »

I agree that they're crooks.

Where we differ is on the need for unions. You have a union and they still pulled it off.

Basically, the unions today serve as a set of organized crooks to counter the corperate crooks. I wonder how much money the unions have managed to suck from the proffit margin. That's a little more cloudy and not something I'm sure you'd care to cover.

I'd like to see it be a little less on the crook end for both sides.

MiniD

Dowding · « **Reply #43 on:** March 31, 2003, 11:11:36 AM »

I wonder how much money health and safety improvements to the working environment have sucked from the profit margin?

"Work, you fiends, work! You! Stop bleeding! You're damaging the product! Right, you're fired! Get me the HR department and find someone other poor schmuck to be taken advantage of."

Unions often have their problems. Management often profits hugely from theirs, and it's John Smith who pays in the end.

Balance is the key. And trust through good leadership.