Author Topic: SquadOps Sunday frame 3 - AARs  (Read 2590 times)

Offline Dinger

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SquadOps Sunday frame 3 - AARs
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2003, 03:03:29 PM »
some clarifications:
"Admin" and "Design" are two separate functions.  They can be filled by the same person (although many would argue that they should not), but it is not necessary.  Maybe I misunderstand.  If the "admin" person has supreme authority, he should be making the calls.  I haven't seen many events where a CM was not called upon to issue a judgment.
I had no idea that referees could also participate, refuse to make decisions when they were called upon to do so, or that they could leave before the frame was done.  Since the CMs are all volunteers and are not being reimbursed in any way whatsoever, I'll accept this as policies befitting the amateur "pick up" style of play being encouraged.  I shouldn't expect you guys to take this seriously.  After all the point is for the CMs to have fun, and forget the rules.  This isn't a serious enough event to merit a full-time referee.  If the scenario has serious problems, and all the guy in blue can do is appeal to some other guy in blue who's too busy playing to referee, we should just come back to the BBS and badmouth the CMs like we always do.
As I pointed out above, even if all bombers were flying out of A40, there was no way we could make the round trip in the alotted time.  I have no problem with rules extending the time for RTB, or changing the RTB conditions so that, say being past a certain line counts, but I don't particularly like being lost before we roll, or forcing the bomber pilots to fly an absolutely predictable route to have a *hope* of returning.

As for novelty: the war's been over for sixty years.  We don't ask for "new" things; we ask for entertaining missions.  This is like soccer, not a soap opera.  A team sport has its own rewards, and doesn't need new twists and complications.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2003, 03:05:33 PM by Dinger »

Offline Flossy

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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2003, 04:14:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger
some clarifications:
"Admin" and "Design" are two separate functions.
As far as the CM team is concerned, there are Admin CMs and Setup CMs in the SquadOps team.  Admin CMs design the SquadOp, deciding which terrain should be used, which planes/fields, etc and set the targets.  It is the Admin CMs who pass the orders for each frame to the Side COs, and to the Setup CM so that he can set up the arena as required.

If, during a frame, there are issues and the Admin CM is present (preferred but not essential), any questions can be directed to him for any rulings to be made; otherwise, if the Admin CM is not present, any issues should be brought to the forum, or by email to him and/or myself and Ghostdancer (SquadOps Team Leader).  
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I had no idea that referees could also participate, refuse to make decisions when they were called upon to do so, or that they could leave before the frame was done.  
Not sure what you mean by referees?  The Admin CMs can take part if they wish, as their work is already done, but are not obliged to do so, or even to be present.  The Setup CM is also the host and is not allowed to fly, though we do allow them to gun after the first 30 minutes have passed (when discos are no longer allowed to reup, so the bulk of the work is done).  Which person are you referring to?
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Since the CMs are all volunteers and are not being reimbursed in any way whatsoever, I'll accept this as policies befitting the amateur "pick up" style of play being encouraged.  I shouldn't expect you guys to take this seriously.  After all the point is for the CMs to have fun, and forget the rules.  This isn't a serious enough event to merit a full-time referee.  If the scenario has serious problems, and all the guy in blue can do is appeal to some other guy in blue who's too busy playing to referee, we should just come back to the BBS and badmouth the CMs like we always do.
As a matter of fact we do take our jobs seriously, and I resent accusations that we do not.  We want to create events that are fun for the players and a lot of hard work goes into doing just that - especially in the SquadOps, but also in our other events.  I do discourage having too many CMs typing in blue during an event, as I appreciate this can cause confusion..... only the Setup CM should normally type in blue - all other CMs present should use channel 1.  If I have to become involved, I will tend to use the yellow CM channel to at least keep any confusion to a minimum.
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I don't particularly like being lost before we roll, or forcing the bomber pilots to fly an absolutely predictable route to have a *hope* of returning.
I agree that is not an ideal way to run a bombing mission, but the issue of not having time to RTB is being discussed and we will hopefully have a new policy in place soon for these sorts of occasions.
Quote
As for novelty: the war's been over for sixty years.  We don't ask for "new" things; we ask for entertaining missions.  This is like soccer, not a soap opera.  A team sport has its own rewards, and doesn't need new twists and complications.
That is your opinion, to which you are entitled.  However, some players are looking for something different, and I don't see any harm in events were new things are tried - indeed, I would encourage them.
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Offline Dinger

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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2003, 04:59:19 PM »
Let my try to be a little less polemic.

It seems there are two issues here:
1) I don't fully understand the way the CM duties are divvied up.
2) There was a failure in the system on Sunday.
I've been using these two points to argue that the way they're divvied up right now is less than satisfactory.
There are also two sub-issues:
3) The design for Sunday's scenario was less than optimal, particularly with reference to the bomber route.  A good design allows a chance for "success".  An impossible mission (like what we had) doesn't allow for success.  Even if I conceded that it was possible for a squad of B26s to fly NOE from A40 to A33, drop bombs and return in two hours (which I will not), I would still argue that issuing rules enabling "impossible" fields is just as bad.
4) general design principles for bombers in scenarios (bombers want to fly, have some tension, see some enemy planes, bomb, return home safely some of the time, and land), and for scenarios in general.

I'll leave 3 and 4 for some other post.  I'm happy to talk about them
I've been arguing from my understanding of how CM duties should be divided.  Feel free to disagree with me on any point, but here's how I see it.

There are four times in scenarios that call for an arbitrary controlling authority (CM), they are:

A) Writing the scenario rules (I've referred to this as the "Design CM")
B) Preparing the arena, balancing the sides and implementing the environment (what I've seen as "Setup CM")
C) Enforcing and interpreting  the rules during the scenario (this is what I thought you meant by "Admin CM")
D) Summarizing the event and scoring it.

At each of these times, there can (and often are) be more than one CM, but the relationship is usually hierarchical.  There is always one person with absolute authority.  Usually this works in the same way as the CO/XO model: one commands and one controls.  For example, in A), someone can draw up the broad lines (say B17s and B26s with P51s aga inst Me262s and 163s), and someone else work on the details (these bases).  Or in B), there may be one CM per side, and an overall administrator.k

The same person often fills many of these roles.  In fact, the same overall authority should be in C) and D): the person who made the calls on the field should score it.  Some of these roles don't work too well together.  As we've seen time and again, it requires a lot of maturity to be overall CM in A) and C); people seem to identify themselves too much with their work and discard the flexibility necessary to make their work work.

Now, I'm not sure what happened on Sunday, but I think we can get there:

First, if there are more than one CM, in speaking to the sides or individuals, they must speak with a unified voice.  That means they need to be in communication with each other.  While each may have a sphere of responsibility, if they're speaking in blue, they speak with the authority of all the CMs.

Second, someone with supreme authority must be present for the whole frame, and must not participate in any other way.  I'm sorry. This is common sense.  You can have subordinate CMs flying on sides, but not the head honcho.

Third, at each of the times, there must be something with absolute authority.  I have never seen any scenario setup or rules that were perfect.  Last week, it was only by sheer luck that a serious typographical error in the rules was spotted before the scenario started (and sides would have been playing with different sets of rules).  Had this gone through, whoever was running C) would have to do some fancy footwork.  This week, the design had rules that made it absolutely impossible for any bombers to return home without being counted as lost, and – as far as any of us in the field knew – made no provision for this necessity.  In these cases, someone has to be available and answerable during the frame to compensate for these defects and to make a decision. After the decision is made, then we can go and squeak all we want on the boards.  But what I found was, thirty minutes into the mission, there was nobody with such authority.

Fourth (and this is beside the point), the CM is a referee, and should never presume to usurp the authority of the side CO.  If a side CO cc's the CM with the orders, and the CM sees an error in the rules, or if the CM sees that the mission as planned is grossly inadequate (e.g., a rookie CO has given bombers an impossible route to fly in the given time), the CM can and probably should send a message to the CO.  The CM should not CC all commanders and change the orders.


---

Sorry: I wrote this while you posted.  The point boils down to: whoever writes in blue has to have the authority to interpret rules, and to compensate for design flaws, especially with untested stuff.  I'm confident that person won't go "out of bounds", but don't pass it to the designer (as you stated, the "Admin CM's" job is done).  Make the call, and we can hash it over later.

Offline ghostdancer

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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2003, 06:35:17 PM »
Let me clarify the roles of CMs. There are two roles.

Admin CM
  • Designs Event. This entails picking the time frame, the terrain, the plane set (decides which planes to substitute if necessary), the victory conditions, and creation of any special rules.
  • Makes sure that all squads have confirmed for an event and have confirmed their squad committment levels. Although I as team leading have taken over the responsibility for both Friday and Sunday now.
  • Divies up the squads into roughly equal sides. Doesn't always has to be equal but roughly tries to make sure that both sides have a shot of winning.
  • Sends out orders/objectives/targets to the CiC of both side.
  • Makes the setup CM aware of all the setup details and special rules.


Setup CM
  • Creates the tables for the frame. This means he activates bases, setups what planes can up from what base, setups fuel burn rate, setups radar settings, icon range, weather, etc.  The setup CM basically sets up all the actual game parameters for the event that the Admin CM requested.
  • Setup CM makes sure that everyone is in a squad and ejects those not in a squad.
  • Setup CM deals with reup issues do to disconnects after 15 minutes into the frame and before the 30 minute cut off.
  • Setup CM deals with any in game problems that happens and tries to fix them if possible through the game tools we have.
  • Setup CM make judgement calls .. basically they are referees and have to make the game call when a situation arises. Keep in mind that most setup CM's don't want to deviate too far from frame design that has been given them. However, setup CM's can alter a frame to compensate for things that they think are way out of wack. In my case I did it in a Pacific Frame where the fuel rate was set to high and both sides were running out of fuel. So I dropped it from 1.5 to 0.75 because neither side would have found each other to fight in time and neither side would have enjoyed flying for 1 hour to just fall out of the air.


In Pyroman's case he decided to let the logs run a bit longer so that bombers that were close to England could actually land, be recorded as a landing and then sort things out later instead of trying to reconstruct information that was not recorded.

As pointed out he did then ask for other people to tell him who was up so that he could pass that information along that a large percentage of the allied planes were still in the air at the end of a frame.
[/list]

Up to the actual game time the Admin CM is god. During the game time the setup CM is god. However, if the setup CM throws out or rewrites completely the Admin CM's stuff .. well he better have a good reason for doing so because if he doesn't the Admin CM will raise hell. Just like you not liking somebody coming in and changing the CiC's orders that have been issued.
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Offline daddog

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« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2003, 08:53:19 PM »
Quote
I had no idea that referees could also participate, refuse to make decisions when they were called upon to do so, or that they could leave before the frame was done. Since the CMs are all volunteers and are not being reimbursed in any way whatsoever, I'll accept this as policies befitting the amateur "pick up" style of play being encouraged. I shouldn't expect you guys to take this seriously. After all the point is for the CMs to have fun, and forget the rules. This isn't a serious enough event to merit a full-time referee. If the scenario has serious problems, and all the guy in blue can do is appeal to some other guy in blue who's too busy playing to referee, we should just come back to the BBS and badmouth the CMs like we always do.

You can be polemic, but try to be less opprobrious.

You have raised some good points as others have, but you are also really insulting some folks who are just trying to provide the community with quality events. I will not address some of the errors that were made with this particular Sunday Squad Operations, but I will address the issue of the roles of Admin and Setup CM.

Tell you what. I will step down as Admin CM and train you to take my place. I will also train you to be the Setup CM and you can run some Squad Operations. Do that for 6 months, which is only 3 Squad Operations and then tell me again you think it should be ran by one person. And no, I am not kidding.

You have no idea of the work involved. None.
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Offline Dinger

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« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2003, 12:04:22 AM »
Thanks Ghostdancer, that's exactly the way it should be.
And Daddog, I never said that we only needed one CM; quite the contrary.  What I did say, is that there should be one person in charge of the event.  The buck has got to stop somewhere, and that somewhere has to be someone in the arena at the time of the event.

What happened on Sunday (and I'm sorry you weren't there to witness it), was that there was one guy running it.  There were problems with the rules, undoubtedly complicated by the orders.  30 minutes into the frame, I contacted the "setup CM", and informed him that nobody on the allied side was going to be RTBing within the alotted two hours, and that he should be prepared to be flexible.  The response I got was "Grayarea is the Admin CM; I'm only the Setup CM; there's nothing I can do about it".  Read this thread -- there's a lot of confusion over who was in charge in the scenario.  And not all of the confused people are yours truly.  The argument I was getting was that the CM with referee authority over the event was flying a Dora.  Now that Ghostdancer has clarified that, in fact, that was not the case, the rest is administrative.

Nor do I doubt that it takes a lot of work to CM in any capacity.  Take for example, scenario design. A side CO has to calculate flight times, escort RVs, CAPs, refueling patterns and chain of command for only one plan.  A CM has to do that for several plans, for both sides of the event.  If a side CO messes up, the individual squad leaders have enough leeway to somehow avoid a total disaster.  If a CM screws up, well it gets ugly.

Finally let me repeat that I enjoyed the frame on Sunday.  I was one of the last allowed to RTB. (then the CM inadvertently loaded the default tables and gave England to the Axis)  I don't look at or care about the scores.  There was just a bit of confusion on the matter, and I felt the need to press until someone cleared up the issue.
Thank you

Offline DarkStarStv

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« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2003, 02:58:51 AM »
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Not more points by landing , but fly whole mission from start to land. For som ppls its much more importand them 1 hour more spend on SEA.

Sometimes back home on domaged buff is a core of fun.

"Quick" starts are not real, same like closing logs for pilots who have 100 mils home and many fuel for rtb

ramzey


If there were no additional points for landing (or saving of negative points) then I have no problem with extending a frame for as many hours as people want :)

Clearly, "Quick" starts are not real. However, after the first minute or so then things are back to normality. And they do offer the possibility of more varied mid and end games that can be completed in about 2 hours.

Personally, any event that approaches an overall time of 3 hours or more (including turn up 30 mins before etc) is not something that appeals to me on a weekly basis.

Offline Zanth

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« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2003, 12:00:50 PM »
Rather than making new rules and such, wouldn't it be just so much more sensible to make sure future targets are not so far away?   Two hours is a long time to fly, and should surely be enough time to do what is required.

Offline ViFF

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« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2003, 12:39:37 PM »
Well it takes 75 minutes (1 hr+15 min) for a fully loaded B-17G formation to climb to 25k, and then another 20 minutes for it to accelerate to cruising speed (270 mph true airspeed).  So for that matter placing the targets closer to the front won't help much when B-17s are included in the frame.

Offline ~Pyroman~

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« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2003, 03:49:15 PM »
Wow this thread got sorta ugly.

When running events you need to use the K.I.S.S method.  Having 4 CM's as you suggested Dinger (if I read it correctly) is definately not using that method.  That's too many chiefs and not enough Indians.  That's just going to make more problems and you would be right back in here screaming about it offering some other suggestion.

With all due respect, unless you are a CM and know what it's like DOING the job and have some experience in it, I don't believe it's your place to tell us how to do ours.  

I don't think you would like me going to your place of employment and making a big stink because I thought you made a mistake and offered suggestions on how to fix your problem when I have no clue what your job entails.

I'm not trying to offend you, but maybe you should go back and read what you wrote.  I was very insulted.  I don't appreciate some of your comments.

I did what I thought was best.  I first went to Flossy about starting the frame late and she agreed that was the best idea.  Then I went to GhstDncr about extending the frame and the logs.  I just didn't make a shoot at the hip decision.

Everyone's a critic.

You know what President Lincohn said. "You can please some of the people some of the time, most of the people most of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time".  I went with the majority on my decision.  Just a select few have major issues with it.

Yes I did tell you that it was Grayarea's place to make changes not mine.  I sure wasn't trying to pass the buck.  I was telling you what my limitations were.  For you to say Grayarea and I were pitting against each other is ridiculous.  Don't assume things.  Grayarea and I have a very good working relationship, but things go awry at times.

I could go on, but I fear I'd be wasting my time.  

Dinger you're a good person and I don't want to hamper my relationship with you and keep it professional, but put yourself in my shoes and read what you wrote.  Not very professional throwing out accusations. :)


Offline ramzey

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« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2003, 04:53:32 PM »
@Pyroman

are u know proverb about messenger?

ramzey

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2003, 05:14:19 PM »
When CMs make mistakes, players have two choices:
1.  Say nothing, and endure the same mistakes being repeated over and over.  Bad for squad morale, bad for the events.
2.  Say something, and hope it gets fixed.  Preferably in private.

The private option is nice, but when CMs and opposing players make false claims in an open forum, which don't reflect well on frame participants, it's pretty hard to hold one's tongue.  So sometimes a polite public response is appropriate.

In the future I will try to make sure my guys keep this stuff private though.



*Edit* removed some stuff that didn't really serve any purpose.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2003, 05:31:43 PM by funkedup »

Offline ~Pyroman~

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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2003, 05:30:53 PM »
Funked I agree with your comments.  People should speak up when they don't agree with something.  You are absolutely correct.  I don't think they should keep it in private.

Now with that being said, pointing out mistakes is one thing making accusations is another.  No person no matter what thier job is should have to deal with that.

Dinger started off making some great points, but it turned into saying Grayarea and I are undermining each other.  Now I know he didn't say that in so many words, but it's obvious that's what he meant.

I'm not arguing with what your saying.  Your post was well put and to the point and I respect that

I just don't want you to think I'm getting on you with this post because I"m not.  Just stating what I observed with his post. :)

Sorry if I sounded like I was whining with my last post.  I was a little heated after I read Dinger's post.  I have no beefs with Dinger what's so ever.  He's a good guy and really cracks me up during Squad Ops.  I just want to let people know where I"m coming from that's all. :)


Offline funkedup

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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2003, 05:34:50 PM »
Pyroman
I appreciate the work you guys do.
I can understand why you might "get your back up" over player comments.   I can't do your job, because I don't have that kind of self control, as has been demonstrated in past scenarios.
Thank you for tolerating us "back-seat-drivers".

Offline ghostdancer

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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2003, 05:42:53 PM »
Actually funkedup the players have every right to squeak and bring up things that they are believed are mistakes or unfair. However, we asked them, and Pyroman did, to post it in the BBS. Most of the time giving the setup CM a hard time in an event is pointless because he simply can not do anything about it.

The main thing problem that really happened is that people expressed they were upset. Fine, it was acknowledge by Pyroman during the event. He told them to post it in the BBS so that Flossy, myself, and Grayarea could see it and their logic. Several people continue to rip into him. He told them again fine that he couldn't do anything about it (by this mean major changes even though he didn't say that) and to post in the BBS. Same people and others then ripped into him again.

As you stated funkedup the way to handle this is to express your concern either on open channel or privately and then post on the BBS or email myself (ghostdancer@hitechcreations.com) or flossy (flossy@hitechcreations.com) if you are really upset.

What I am not happy about is the lack of civility I saw by several people in the event toward the end. Which carried over to some extent onto the BBS.

I understand that the allied complaint about not being able to get to target and home in the time alotment. And I understand the LW arguement that hey don't change the rules on us at the very end when are whole strategy was based on killing and tying up allied bombers to end frame so they don't count as landings.

Both have valid points that are being looked into and lessons will be applied for the next design.

If the mistakes were politely pointed out there would never had been a problem. If the mistakes were posted on the BBS there would not have been a problem. Where everything stems from is that mistakes were not politely pointed out in the last 30 minutes of the event but instead the setup CM was castigated by several people. That bled over to this board.
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