Author Topic: Why the Israelis will prevail  (Read 2844 times)

Offline X2Lee

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2003, 07:17:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Your attempt at being cute aside Sharon is war criminal look it up.



Umm, he wasnt convicted.

Is OJ Simpson a murderer?

Offline X2Lee

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2003, 07:29:23 PM »
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Originally posted by Batz


No Nation is prepared to take displaced palestinians. Take the current situation back back 60 years and there very well could be "palestinian death camps". They arent dealing with a general "Arab" question. Not all Arabs are palestinian. For the longest time Jordan didnt want "palestinians" in Jordan.

The problem is to what to do with the "Palestinians" that currently reside on their "promised" land. I have read Zionists call for this and I think if the world wasnt watching Sharon would get right to it. That and a growing population of "non-Zionist" jews in Israel and around the world that can envision a future palestinian state.


Well if Israel wanted all the land back that the romans"displaced" them from, Jordan would be Israel too.
Israels next target?
I mean after exterminating all the palestines....

Offline Animal

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2003, 07:36:41 PM »
Good point X2Lee

Offline N1kPaz

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« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2003, 07:51:34 PM »
if i were a palestinian, maybe i would strap a bomb to one of my kids and send him to martydom.... NOT...

cant take em as anything but savages...sorry

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2003, 07:59:09 PM »
There's very little fundamental difference in how the Nazis percieved the value of a Jewish life and how the Palestinians percieve the value of an Israeli Jewish life. The only difference being that in contemporary Israel, the Israelis have learned to take whatever measure neccesary to survive. In Germany, there was no organized resistance that saved the Jews from the Nazi plan of "racial cleansing".

And it's not just the Palestinians that pose a threat. It's every nation that surrounds Israel and loaths the state of Israel and it's people. The Palestinians happen to be the worst threat because they are terrorists that wage a constant war bent on the death of every Jew. At least the surrounding nations have pretty much given up attacking Israel (en-masse usually). It was after each of these wars that Israel gained most of it's territory. Territory to act as a buffer. Territory that many would have them give back.

Divine providence? I don't think Israel uses "divine providence" the way we did. Israel would be content to live in peace and be left alone. They have no desire to own Jordan, Syria, etc. "Divine providence" to the Israeli jew more likely entails Israel being the traditional land that the God of the Jews "deeded" them according to Jewish religion, history and law.

For those who talk of the unfair occupation of Israel for the last fifty years and the cruel way in which the Israelis police and control violence (and potential violence). It is an act of survival. I'm sure the Israeli Jews would be glad to return to a more peaceful homeland if they had one. This is their home. The only one they have. Before that was the diaspora. Returning to such isn't an option. And before the diaspora ... was Israel.  Even before Israel was made the 20th century state it is now, Jews in the local vicinity suffered at the hands of the Palestinians. At least one major slaughter of the jews happened in the decade prior to Israel being declared a state ... and murders of Jews was quite commonplace ... with little done to investigate and right the wrong.

Photos of Palestinian kids running for thier lives in front of an Israeli tank make for great pro-Palestinian fluff. Is there the slightest chance that the children were told to go stand in the path of a tank until it got really close by their parents (holding their cameras and putting their child's safety in danger ... for the cause) ? Told to go throw some rocks at some armed Israeli soldiers that are expecting violence and are on edge by their religious or educational mentor (get those cameras ready)? From what I've seen of the radical Muslim mentality ... it's all too easy and common for them to sacrifice their children in an ongoing hate-war with the Israelis just to garner support from the world. And yet, if the Israelis act swiftly in response ... or take measures to reduce the violence ... then there's just more pictures of the evil Israelis "killing innocent Palestinian children" .... "just for the fun of it".

Zionism or the Palestinian vow to kill all of the Israeli Jews? How can one ridicule the former and support the latter without coming out a total hypocrite?

Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Zionism does not address Arabs at all. It ignores them, and their needs.

Zionism is more like the American "manifest destiny" doctrine.  The purpose isn't to eradicate the Arabs, or even move them out of the way, the purpose is to settle the territory of Israel.

Nazism saw Jews themselves as a problem. Whilst there was some attempt to simply displace them, it wasn't because they were in the way, and preventing German expansion. The Jews themselves were percieved as the problem.

If there were 10 million Jews and 1 million Palestinians, Israel would have given them citizenship long ago, and the place would be peaceful now.

For Zionism, the goal is to get the land. The problem is the Palestinians are in the way.

For Nazism, the goal was to get rid of the Jews. The problem was how best to do it.

That's a fundamental difference.

Offline Batz

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2003, 08:16:22 PM »
Quote
Umm, he wasnt convicted.

Is OJ Simpson a murderer?


again you are trying to be cute. It doesnt matter if hes convicted hes still a war criminal. The next time hes in Europe I am sure it will get straightened out.



Quote
Well if Israel wanted all the land back that the romans"displaced" them from, Jordan would be Israel too.
Israels next target?
I mean after exterminating all the palestines....


You need to read a history book. The Romans didnt displace people hey installed a provential governor backed by roman legions and demanded tax revenue. The Jews still owned their land and organized the government. Jews were a part of the Roman bureaucracy through out the Roman empire.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2003, 08:27:50 PM by Batz »

Offline Frogm4n

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #81 on: March 31, 2003, 08:24:09 PM »
Quote
cant take em as anything but savages...sorry


this kind of mentality breeds terrorists.

Offline Hangtime

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #82 on: March 31, 2003, 08:24:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Can you have a constructive discussion with terrorists who are bent on your destruction? Has Arafat really represented the needs of his people over these many years?

Again, like in so many instances throughout history, the common man suffers while the leadership serves it's own interests.

The only thing Clinton did which I give him credit for, is brought the two nations to a point where peace would have had a running start....who spoiled that chance for the Palestinians?


who spoiled that chance?? a Jew from brooklyn walked into a mosque in jerusalem and gunned down about 20 praying moslems.

rat bastard.

where is he now?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Batz

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2003, 08:26:55 PM »
Quote
There's very little fundamental difference in how the Nazis percieved the value of a Jewish life and how the Palestinians percieve the value of an Israeli Jewish life.


No you have it backwards, Zionist place no value on palestinian lives. Thats the problem.

The History of the Jews is not an excuse for their treatment of the Palestinians. 1 jewish life is of no more value  the 1 palestinian life. Securing the right for the State of Israel to exists is no excuse for the oppressing and ill treatment of Palestinians.

It doesnt matter why "those kids" are in front of those tanks. You still wouldnt respond to children throwing rocks with machine gun fire. Or Bulldoze an entire block because a "suspected terrorists" mother once lived in the neighborhood.

Israel gets what it deserves. The US ought to back the palestinians to the same degree as it did Israel. Then you wont be concerned with nail bombers.

Offline Frogm4n

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #84 on: March 31, 2003, 08:27:00 PM »
to think either side is morally superior to the other is a joke. like i said before it dosnt matter who started the terrorism the only way to stop it is to let them have a country where they can be considered a citizen.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #85 on: March 31, 2003, 08:29:23 PM »
Cut it off.

every freaking dime.

not one cent of aid to ANY nation.

not ONE loan guarentee.

ANYWHERE.

TO ANY NATION.

Untill they provide humanitarian GUARENTEES, comply with UN directives and resolutions, and PROVE they intend to work for peace and accomodation internally, and externally.

ALL NATIONS.

cut the freakin money off.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Arlo

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #86 on: March 31, 2003, 08:43:30 PM »
Actually there's more to it than that.

"The first time the name (Palestine) was used was in 70 CE when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.
"Palestine has never existed - before or since - as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.

- Joseph Farah, Arab-American journalist, editor and CEO of WorldNetDaily


The name "Palestine", from the Greek Palaistina, originally from the Hebrew Pleshet (Land of the Philistines): a small coastal strip north east of Egypt, also called Philistia. The Roman term "Syria Palaestina" in the 2nd century BCE referred to the southern third of the province of Syria, including the former Judea. The name "Palestine" was revived as an official title when the British were granted a mandate after World War I.
- Encyclopaedia Britanica ill, Micropaedia, vol. Vll, "Palestine."

A common misperception is that the Jews were forced into the diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 A.D. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years. A national language and a distinct civilization have been maintained.
Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in Palestine continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.

Many Jews were massacred by the Crusaders during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century - years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement - more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.


Although the expulsions of Jews after AD 70 and 135 were massive, devotion to the Land of Israel caused some to linger just outside the borders, wait for quieter times and keep coming back. One of the so-called Early Church Fathers, Origen, during his stay in the Holy Land from AD 231-254, observed that the Jews were still a majority in the Land at that time. After the Roman Empire embraced Christianity in the fourth century, a systematic dispersal of the remaining Jews began. However, between AD 614-617, the Jews actually controlled large parts of the Land.
Consequently, the population of the Land was a "quilt" of minorities when the Arabs acquired it in their conquest of Byzantine Syria in AD 640. This quilt of people whose Land was dubbed "Palestine" by Imperial Rome was composed of Jews, Samaritans, dissident-Christians and the largest grouping - Syrian Orthodox Christians - none of whom were Arabs.

Although the Arabs ruled the Land from AD 640 to AD 1099, it is questionable that they ever became the majority of the population. The historian James Parker wrote:

"During the first century after the Arab conquest [AD 670-740], the caliph and governors of Syria and the Land [Palestine] ruled entirely over Christian and Jewish subjects. Apart from the Bedouin in the earliest days, the only Arabs west of the Jordan...were the garrisons."

In AD 985 the Arab writer Muqaddasi complained about the large majority Jewish population in Jerusalem and added, "The mosque is empty of worshippers..." Although Al-Hakim, Caliph of the Arab Empire (AD 996-1021), ordered all non-Muslims in Syria and the area called Palestine to convert to Islam or be expelled, he later rescinded some of the restrictions and so the Arabs remained a minority.

The noted Arab historian Dr. Philip Hitti observed that after almost four centuries after the Arab conquest (about AD 1070), the Christians (non-Arabs) in Syria, including Palestine, were still fully as numerous as the Muslims and that the Muslims were by no means all Arab.

The Crusader rule (AD 1099-1291) in the Land was followed by the non-Arab Muslim rule of the Mamelukes (AD 1291-1517). The Arab historian Hitti observed that there was a large exodus of Arabs during this period. The Arab historian Ibu Khaldun wrote in AD 1377, "Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel extended over 1400 years...It was the Jews who implanted the culture and customs of the permanent settlement."

Nearly 300 years after the Arab rule in the Land, the noted Arab historian Khaldun (called one of the greatest historians of all time by Arnold Toynbee) observed that the Land still was permeated with Jewish culture and customs. In AD 1400, nearly 300 years after Arab rule, there was still no evidence of Palestinian roots or established culture.

During the period of the Mamelukes as a consequence of the Black Plague, the population of the Land west of the Jordan River dwindled down to 140,000 to 150,000 Muslims, Christians and Jews. After the Turkish conquest in 1517 a census for tax purposes tabulated 49,181 heads of families and single men liable to tax. Professor Roberto Bacchi calculated that in the years 1553-1554 there were 205,000 Muslims, Christians and Jews.

From his travels in 1785, Francois Comte de Volney's figures would leave less than 200,000 for the total population of the land of Palestine. Both Dr. Philip K. Hitti and Alfred Bonni agree that the total population was less than 200,000 in AD 1800. Some estimate the total population of the Land at 150,000 by 1850. This total population would include Jews, Christians and Arabs.

Then Jewish funds started to flow into the Land by 1856 when Sir Moses Montefiore purchased Land outside of Jerusalem to teach agriculture to the Jews in the Land. From about 1878, Edmond de Rothschild began to actually finance the establishment of Jewish agricultural colonies. At this time in history, an uninterrupted stream of Jewish funds and Jewish immigration commenced to pour into Palestine. This influx of resources resulted in an economic upswing that attracted Arabs from surrounding countries.

Since the Land was at that time under Turkish Muslim rule, Arabs throughout the Middle East had unrestricted access to Palestine. By 1918 the Arab population increased to 560,000. In spite of restrictions on Jewish immigration, Jews and Arabs continued to pour into the Land until the birth of the State of Israel in 1948. Clearly, Jewish financial investments and immigration - together with laborious cultivation of the land - had put the Land of Israel on the economic map.

...The Jews lived in the Land of Israel for seventeen hundred years virtually uninterrupted until the Roman destruction of its national polity in AD 70. At this point, Israel's population of over two and one-half million was abruptly decimated by massive slaughter and expulsion. But as late as AD 617, Jews controlled Jerusalem and a large portion of the Land. After that time, even though Arabs conquered the Land, they were only a minority. Then through the centuries of Christian Crusader rule and the Mameluke period, the Land was still dominated by Jewish culture and customs until AD 1400 even though the Arabs eventually became a small majority.

- Bible Students Congregation of New Brunswick

Quote
Originally posted by Batz

You need to read a history book. The Romans didnt displace people hey installed a provential governor backed by roman legions and demanded tax revenue. The Jews still owned their land and organized the government. Jews were a part of the Roman bureaucracy through out the Roman empire.

Offline Arlo

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #87 on: March 31, 2003, 09:00:08 PM »
How in the world does that "have it backwards"? Did you not read the last line? Are you really trying to tell me that the Palestinians respect the lives of the Israelis more than the Israelis respect the lives of the Palestinians and therefore all the blame rests on the Israelis? Are you really expecting me to ignore the fact that the PLO is dedicated to the total genocide of the Jews in the Middle East? Get real.

 And yes .. it does make all the difference in the world as to how those kids got in front of the tank and who talked them into doing that and other acts that place their lives in mortal jeopardy. The tank could be heading to any location for any reason and there probably would have been Palestinian kids in place for a photo op. And you can blame the skittish Israeli on patrol all you want but don't go feeding me bs that the parents, teachers and religious "mentors" of those kids aren't purposefully endangering their lives just to win over your bleeding heart. It seems to have worked all too well. :rolleyes:

And the U.S. has been working on peace and an equitable solution between the Palestinians and the Israelis for the last  thirty years. Where have you been? :p

Quote
Originally posted by Batz
No you have it backwards, Zionist place no value on palestinian lives. Thats the problem.

The History of the Jews is not an excuse for their treatment of the Palestinians. 1 jewish life is of no more value  the 1 palestinian life. Securing the right for the State of Israel to exists is no excuse for the oppressing and ill treatment of Palestinians.

It doesnt matter why "those kids" are in front of those tanks. You still wouldnt respond to children throwing rocks with machine gun fire. Or Bulldoze an entire block because a "suspected terrorists" mother once lived in the neighborhood.

Israel gets what it deserves. The US ought to back the palestinians to the same degree as it did Israel. Then you wont be concerned with nail bombers.

Offline Animal

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« Reply #88 on: March 31, 2003, 09:13:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Despite its warlike nature israel is at heart a liberal western democracy, the public and the USA would not support tanks running over masses of gandhi style unarmed protestors day after day - but only if ALL palesteninans agreed to stop the terror.


I agree with you Grunherz (surprised? ;) )

There are Palestinians who are willing to die to kill Jews, but there are none who are willing to die in front of a tank for his country.

Offline Batz

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Why the Israelis will prevail
« Reply #89 on: March 31, 2003, 09:20:17 PM »
First your history lesson is wrong the Romans had control of the area before the first Jewish Revolt 64-66 CE. Gessius Florus the prefect at the time was said to be corrupt and "insighted" the Jews to revolt. The "genocide" you claim in 70ce was a continuation in putting down that revolt.


Quote
Jerusalem and the Jewish populations in Judaea had factioned political alliances. Under the rule of the last prefect, Gessius Florus (64-66CE), the different factions united in an effort to revolt against the Roman forces in Jerusalem. Together, they managed to defeat Roman garrisons in and around Jerusalem, thus sending shock waved throughout the Roman Empire. Mass killing of Jews occurred in cities throughout the east, including around 20,000 Jews were killed in Caesarea and around 10,000 in Damascus. Vespasian was ordered by Nero to stop the revolt and by mid 68CE he had managed to suppress Palestine. Two outlets of Jewish resistance remained, a group of revolutionaries at Masada, and the city of Jerusalem. By the summer of 70CE vespasian's son Titus defeated the rebels at Jerusalem, destroyed the city, and sent thousands of Jews into despora.


The Romans didnt just turn up in Palestine and start killing Jews and stealing their land. They had set admintrative and military posts and used Jewish Elders as part of that administration.


You seem to think it matters what palestinians think of the Jews. It doesnt. Outside a few nail bombers blowing themselves up Israel has complete control. The Zionist have looked to expand their living ever since Israel became a state. Also Israel became a state right on the heels of a wave of Zionist terrorists attack that go way beyond what the any extremist palestinian has pulled off.

As for kids and tanks the Zionist use those kids and what ever reasons those kids are "in front of those tanks" to kill them. If the Zionist wanted peace then they wouldnt bulldoze palestinian homes, displace the resident then build Jewish settlements on the "freed up" land.

The fact those kids need no incitement. They can see their fathers rounded up, their brothers killed and their mothers crying. They know what feels like to have no rights and no prospect of decent future. So they pick a rock through it at a tank. Thats all the reasons the Zionists need to machine gun them down.

The US has been playing lip service to the idea of peace in that region. But its not until recently that the US has back an equitable Palestinian state. Where have you been? The US has been one sided in its dealings in that region.

So yes you have backwards. The Jews in that region dont have any more "right" to exist then the palestinians.