Why the Israelis will prevail

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Batz
First your history lesson is wrong the Romans had control of the area before the first Jewish Revolt 64-66 CE. Gessius Florus the prefect at the time was said to be corrupt and "insighted" (incited) the Jews to revolt. The "genocide" you claim in 70ce was a continuation in putting down that revolt.

No, my "history lesson" (sources quoted) is just fine. Nothing in it disputes the Roman control of the area prior to the revolt. The genocide was indeed a continuation. Why the "quote-unquote" and the "you claim"? Is there a variant to this you wish to reveal?

The Romans didnt just turn up in Palestine and start killing Jews and stealing their land. They had set admintrative and military posts and used Jewish Elders as part of that administration.

Again ... where was it mentioned otherwise?

You seem to think it matters what palestinians think of the Jews. It doesnt.

Yes it does. Their "death to the Jews at all cost" attitude is very much at the heart of the problem. Your choosing to ignore that part of it while exhibiting righteous indignation and claiming that the Palestinian children aren't brainwashed from birth by the very people that should be concerned with their welfare into being mass murderers for the cause smacks of hypocrisy.

Outside a few nail bombers blowing themselves up Israel has complete control. The Zionist have looked to expand their living ever since Israel became a state. Also Israel became a state right on the heels of a wave of Zionist terrorists attack that go way beyond what the any extremist palestinian has pulled off.
[/b]

Israel needs complete control. If it didn't have it there would be no Israel. If you believe otherwise then you are deluded. And I'll be glad to see your sources about the "Zionist terrorist attacks that go way beyond what any extremist palestinian has pulled off." posted.

As for kids and tanks the Zionist use those kids and what ever reasons those kids are "in front of those tanks" to kill them. If the Zionist wanted peace then they wouldnt bulldoze palestinian homes, displace the resident then build Jewish settlements on the "freed up" land.

The Zionists use those kids to kill them? What kind of twisted malarkey is this? You really expect me to believe that the "Zionists" arranged to have those kids and a camera set up for that wonderful photo op? That's plain goofy. And I tell ya what - if you had a terrorist living across town and he visited your kid's school and blew up the cafeteria ... and his family rejoiced and honored his sacrifice ... I kinda doubt you'd be enraged about that family being displaced. But, of course, you're gonna dispute this.

The fact those kids need no incitement. They can see their fathers rounded up, their brothers killed and their mothers crying. They know what feels like to have no rights and no prospect of decent future. So they pick a rock through it at a tank. Thats all the reasons the Zionists need to machine gun them down.

They also hear their parents, teachers and religious "mentors" preach and teach Jihad and "sacrificial terrorism". If I get gunned down in a police shoot out here in the states (right or wrong, innocent bystander or not), I guarantee you my kids aren't gonna throw rocks at every police cruiser that passes by or strap a bomb to themselves and walk into a daycare center that happens to have a couple of police officer's families as clients. It's not justified. It's not better than "the evil Zionists'. You are being a hypocrit.

The US has been playing lip service to the idea of peace in that region. But its not until recently that the US has back an equitable Palestinian state. Where have you been? The US has been one sided in its dealings in that region.
[/b]

And how did Arrafat react? You're either being played or playing yourself.

So yes you have backwards. The Jews in that region dont have any more "right" to exist then the palestinians.

Are you still arriving at that conclusion? No, bucko. It's you that's convinced one side has more right than another. I'm the one that just doesn't have the bleeding heart sympathy for a culture and community that has no respect for human life. It's own or others. If both sides are truly this way (as you claim) ... then I'd feel the same both ways. If the Israeli's were as whacked in the head as the Palestinians are ... there would be no Palestinians left. Hey - you said it yourself. They have total control.

But read into whatever what you want. You obviously already do. Just don't expect me to buy into it just because you've gone fanatical.

[Hangtime]

both sides have forfited the right to acendancy.

israel must comply with the UN resolutions, by force if necessary.

a DMZ between 'em; blue helmets in control of ALL religious sites. bulldoze all settlements, cut off all aid to israel and enforce the oslo accords.

[rc51]

Originally posted by Batz




Israel gets what it deserves. The US ought to back the palestinians to the same degree as it did Israel. Then you wont be concerned with nail bombers.

And you sir are an ARSE!!

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Nashwan
What, things like "Israeli tank fires shell at children on bikes breaking curfew, killing four."

[/b]
EXACTLY. Only if you have the details behind each casualty you can form some sort of opinion on those 800 innocents. If you just leave the number out there without any explanation, it becomes horribly misleading, and frankly...wrong.

Or the Israeli government that is using the IDF to enforce security whilst it colonises Palestinian's lands blah blah blah

[/b]

We've been over that subject a thousand times, do you really want to go there again?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Batz
Iron and Steve you maybe pro-Zionist but denying the number palestinians killed is like denying the holocaust. Theres to many facts to prove other wise.

wtf...I'm a "pro-zionist" now?

Seriously, you really should stop using terms like that out of context like that...it gives the wrong impression of you.

If you look at my post again, you will see that I'm not denying the numbers, I am saying that the numbers doesnt say anything because I know that the vast majority of those casualties are collateral damage or honest misstakes/tragedies. Much like the Iraqi minivan at the checkpoint last night. A horrible tragedy, 7 civilians dead, but no blame falls on the US troops because they thought they were under attack and they did everything they could to stop it before opening fire.

Surely you agree there is a difference between someone shooting a civilian in cold blood, and someone dropping a bomb on a terrorist and that bomb also happens to kill an innocent bystander.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Hortlund, to get back to the thread title, what do you mean by "prevail"?

Survive.

(do try to remember who they are fighting against)

[Pongo]

The only reason Israel is not murdering Palestinians on the scale the Nazis did is because it would leak to the rest of the world inmediately.

Animal..thats silly.

Hangtime. I aggree totaly on the aid thing. Please. Just dont cut of Cable TV to Canada.

2-3billion a year. Thats cheap. The "democracy" in Iraq will cost 20 billion per year at least.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Nashwan
That's the problem, they aren't allowed any state, not a Palestinian one or to be part of Israel.

They cant handle a state, PA proved that beyond any doubt. You'd just be setting up Iraq2 or Somalia2 in the middle of Israel...no thanks.

[straffo]

if ever the Palestinian and the Isrealy can't forgot their history and do what the German and French have done it would be a great step in direction of peace....

[flyingaround]

Originally posted by Arlo Actually there's more to it than that




I have to give you KUDO's Arlo, you post in this thread giving the history lesson in the middle east was most excellent.  My favorite part were the bits of information you gave that were provided by Arab academics, refrenced of course.

Ok.  I am going to take this slow for some of you.  
You were just given a basic history lesson.  
It was well thought out and refrenced.  
If you dispute Arlo, look up his refrences, and provide some that dispute HIS facts.  
THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART- Arlo quoted some people of great quality.  They are pretty much universally aknowledged as "knowing what they are talking about" and worthy of paying attention to.  IF you dig out quotes/refrences to refute Arlo, make sure it's worth a damn!  Don't copy and paste some garbage being fed to you by sources we all KNOW are not reliable.  Let's see you quote people that are NOT aknowledged as "nut job fringe elements".

What we have here is history, well known, and in general agreed to history.  If you do not like this much agreed on version of history, step back and wonder why?  Is it because your are so learned, and know so much more than the top academics of this field of study?  If that is so please start publishing your work so we can all bask in your wonderfulness, and your brilliant insight on history will be shared and preserved for postarity.  Is it because you wish to change historty in order to justiy your own opinions and actions maby?  OR is it some flaw in your character or genetic make up that causes you to want two plus two to equal three?

Arlo, if I can be so humble as to make a request.  For the benefit of those on these boards who need it, would you maby explain how Israel was created after WWII (the whole England gave the Arab's their heavy weapons and military bases), and why they now hold these settlements that are much disputed? (6 day war etc)  I myself would attempt it, but I tend to slant things a bit, and would love to hear if our versions of history match.  If you chose not to I would understand.

Again, much respect my friend, and a big <> to ARLO

+Lute
III/JG26 9ST WM's

[Naso]

Thanks Arlo for the quotes, very interesting.

IMHO the problem is not in who was there first, problem is mainly in evolution (no, not THAT one, Hotrlund ).

I know, someone will jump on the chair for what i am going to say, but on this issue there's something that the world can still learn from the "old continent", the Europe.

Not entirely, like in the balkans, but almost the entire Europe have learned a lesson, a lesson thet costed many many lives along the centuries.

The top of this lesson was during the 2 World War, that both costed something near 60 millions lifes (including US sacrifice)

With that lesson we learned that "the WAR does'nt solve nothing", "violence does'nt solve problems", it's a lesson that still have to be completely assimilated, but is a lesson that have helped to put aside the various religious/ethnic/politic hate forces, and try a new (old) way: the compromise

This has been the force that, after the original economic reasons, continue to push for the formation of a real Europe Community, and, maybe, a new European State.

And, if you have forgot it, was the reason behind the formation of the ONU, to have some place where the constrast cut have been solved in peace with the help of the other nations.

But not every people in the world have learned the same lesson, and seem that every people want to pay personally to learn it.

Sad.

As Toad and Hangtime (for different reasons), it's time to stop to help one of the parties just because he is friendly, helpfull, and willing to spent our help in our industries, or accepting to open some mcdonald and drink coke (with all the consequent implications), and start to say :

you want to be part of our world community?
get rid of your extremisms, of your hate, AND GROW UP!
Or keep killing each other, but STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY, BOTH OF YOU!.

Seem strange, but this is the best way to fight terrorism, instead of double standards, and bombing a country to get rid of a mad SOB of a dictator, and letting the hate to continue to grow.

[bozon]

I've never commented on anything in this board, but I'm amazed how anyone who watched CNN a couple of times and read a newspaper, already has established a strong oppinion about the situation in the middle-east (and the solutions).

what I read on this board is just bits and bytes of information all confused, inacurate and mixed up. Ofcourse each is entitled to his own oppinion.

As a jew, Israeli, ex-officer in the IDF (which makes me a war criminal, a nazi and crusifier of crist) I can only tell you that you have absolutly no friggin' idea about whats going on - both the pro-israelies and the pro-palestinians guys.

I've seen too many incidents, was part of too many things, was shot at and was too close to exploding buses just enough to tell you this:
"you cannot base any views on reports in the media. they tell stories, not news."
and I mean ANY media. not Israeli, not arab not international. It's just a load of crap being broadcasted / printed to entertain the audience and make money for the owners.

The truth is WAY too complicated obscured and unpleasent for people to understant while they read their evening paper or watching the news as they are sitting in their comfy sofa.
And I guess you can generalize the above to the rest of the world - US/Iraq war for an instance.

Thinking about it again. I find it even hilarious.

Keep the talking heads talking.
Bozon

[X2Lee]

Originally posted by Batz
again you are trying to be cute. It doesnt matter if hes convicted hes still a war criminal. The next time hes in Europe I am sure it will get straightened out.



 

You need to read a history book. The Romans didnt displace people hey installed a provential governor backed by roman legions and demanded tax revenue. The Jews still owned their land and organized the government. Jews were a part of the Roman bureaucracy through out the Roman empire.

Ya know you can word it how you like the fact remains, Israel was taken from the Jews and renamed Palistine.
Millions of Jews were displaced or left the tyranny of rome.
There land was taken.

[X2Lee]

Originally posted by Batz
again you are trying to be cute. It doesnt matter if hes convicted hes still a war criminal. The next time hes in Europe I am sure it will get straightened out.



 

OK I didnt know you were still a war criminal even before you are proven guilty, I guess thats just the American in me.

And if you mean the belgian courts straightining it out they ruled that he was unable to be tried.

unless you mean a lynch mob?
They are after him already.
Maybe he should move to miami....

[Naso]

So, Bozon, since (and I really agree) you are more entitled of us, BS feeded TV-drinkers (and I am not ironic here), I ask you to share some experience, and to express your opinion.

I will be very happy to ask some questions, expecially to understand better the REAL situation, and interested to ear your view of the facts.

Please, be patient with the flaming a****les, and savants-wannabe (include me in one or both of the types, if you want), and share some of your thoughts and experiences, to help us to better understand your part of the world.

I really do care to understand and learn.