Author Topic: Thank you for a kind offer, Martlet. (Read 1423 times)

miko2d · « **on:** April 01, 2003, 08:54:23 AM »

john9001: Mogadishu, thats where a handfull of special forces killed about a thousand somollies.

miko: For no apparent purpose.

Martlet: not apparent to you, anyway. Try informing yourself. If you have trouble, ask. Someone will gladly fill you in.

I gladly accept your offer to enlighten me. Let me review the extent of my ignorance and misapprehension so that you know where to start.

We decided to go to Somali to arrest or kill a single person Mohamed Farrah Aidid who was apparently doing what hundreds of thousands of warlords do in third-world countries every day - engaged in low-intensity internecine warfare.

We failed in that purpose, lost some troops and equipment and killed a lot of peasants to improve our statistics.

Aidid was not materially affected by losing a few hundred peasants since one thing such places have in abundance are pesants.
In fact, I believe Aidid must have had real trouble sending away all the volunteers willing to serve him after he defeated the mighty USA and threw it out of his country and made a laughingstock out of our troops.
The effect would have been even more beneficial to him if our president did not selflessly undertake a distraction campaign that had the world's attention diverted towards his sexual antics.

The situation in Somali is no worse and no betteer than if we had removed Aidid or if we never came there art all.

Besides a spectacular filming of the amphibious assault by US marines against a beach filled with reporters, what purpose was accomplished by our involvement and killing of those peasants?

miko

Saurdaukar · « **Reply #1 on:** April 01, 2003, 09:10:13 AM »

Our purpose was capture of Aidid. We failed.

We did not go shooting "peasents" to "improve statistics" my dear boy, the US forces were attacked by militia after failing to capture the man and responded. Really simple.

Then Clinton pulled out and showed the rest of the third world that America will leave if attacked.

Then four planes were hijacked and three were flown into buildings in New York and Washington.

Martlet · « **Reply #2 on:** April 01, 2003, 09:10:44 AM »

Sure, I'd be more than happy to help.

First, we obviously have to correct your facts. You are mistaken about why we were there, and obviously about how operators run. Since you are obviously VERY misinformed, I'm going to start you off small.

Here's a few books I have read. They are actually accounts from both sides, and not entirely pro US. I feel they paint an accurate picture. Some of them contain notes from my friends, as my team was present in that arena of action.

Black Hawk Down: Good for US perspective of the actual combat, and UN involvement.

Somalia: Good Intentions, Deadly Results. Contains some interesting interviews from both sides. Gives a fairly unbiased Somali point of view

Ambush in Mogadishu: Similiar to BHD, but contains a good timeline of events prior and past.

Ma-alinti Rangers: Very anti american, but good perspective of the Somali side.

When you finish those, let me know. We'll discuss them, and I'll give you a few more suggestions.

Dowding · « **Reply #3 on:** April 01, 2003, 09:16:21 AM »

You're not willing to actually debate Miko's points?

Martlet · « **Reply #4 on:** April 01, 2003, 09:19:51 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
You're not willing to actually debate Miko's points?

He didn't really open any points to debate, did he? Maybe I'm tired, but I don't have the desire right now to enter into a mindless bash fest.

Accusing the US of going there, not accomplishing a task, then just whacking peasants in frustration isn't an invitation to debate.

Like I said, when he reads the papers I suggested, has enough information to at least make an intelligent, informed opening statement, I'll be happy to debate him.

-tronski- · « **Reply #5 on:** April 01, 2003, 09:55:57 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Our purpose was capture of Aidid. We failed.

We did not go shooting "peasents" to "improve statistics" my dear boy, the US forces were attacked by militia after failing to capture the man and responded. Really simple.

Then Clinton pulled out and showed the rest of the third world that America will leave if attacked.

Then four planes were hijacked and three were flown into buildings in New York and Washington.

You're joking right?

Tronsky

miko2d · « **Reply #6 on:** April 01, 2003, 10:06:15 AM »

The books descri be how combat took place. I have a good idea already - casualties, efficiency of weapons, specific weapons used, etc.

Being an ex-military and a (prospective) armed cirtizen - making a choice of a weapon at that time - I subjected the details of the battle to a detailed scrutiny - not just the book but the published opinions of experts and conversations with ex-military types on various boards.

AR-15 is a very popular rifle in US and it's failure to perform in Mogadishy - the short-barreled CAR rifles in particular was of a great concern.

I certainly went with a 5.56x45 chambered weapon instead of 7.62x39 under the influence of the fact that only 18 US troops were killed but 77 survived compared to hundreds of somalis killed outright.

Anyway, the tactics and battle plans are not in question. Neiter, it appears to be an outcome. Many dea, no aideed.

I cannot pose a question any better (open points to debate as you say it) since you stated that I do not know something and I cannot ask what I don't know I need to ask. So I disclosed my total views and let you frame the question for me and answer it.
I was not expecting a debate here but a lecture. Still waiting, btw.

Saurdaukar: We did not go shooting "peasents" to "improve statistics" my dear boy...

You personally may beleive so but in the thread from which this discussion branched out it was something like this:

"Mogadishu, thats where a handfull of special forces killed about a thousand somollies." - in a sence of accomplishment rather than botched operation that was supposed to be bloodless.

and:

"I am a bit surprised that any one could believe that. Werent like 3000 somalis killed for 18 us?
The US surely wasnt beaten they just pulled out and I cant think anyone can doudt that even with that light force they could have killed thousands more." - as long as we kill a lot of people, we can't say we are at a loss, right? And any screwed up operation can be remedied this way - pile up some corpses and report a resounding victory.

miko

Naso · « **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2003, 10:09:13 AM »

Jeez, Miko you are going to be burned alive by the gravedancers!!

Frogm4n · « **Reply #8 on:** April 01, 2003, 10:31:08 AM »

BUsh the first started the mess in somolia and clinton did the right thing pulling them out of there before it became another vietnam. We shouldnt have gone in there in the first place.

miko2d · « **Reply #9 on:** April 01, 2003, 10:36:56 AM »

Apparently, it would have been OK to pull out before the Mogadishu fiasco. After it we were supposed to exterminate those pesky people to instill fear in the world, not show them our "weakness"

That would have prevented 9/11 and emergence of Euro, right?

miko

Martlet · « **Reply #10 on:** April 01, 2003, 10:37:50 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
The books descri be how combat took place. I have a good idea already - casualties, efficiency of weapons, specific weapons used, etc.

Being an ex-military and a (prospective) armed cirtizen - making a choice of a weapon at that time - I subjected the details of the battle to a detailed scrutiny - not just the book but the published opinions of experts and conversations with ex-military types on various boards.

AR-15 is a very popular rifle in US and it's failure to perform in Mogadishy - the short-barreled CAR rifles in particular was of a great concern.

I certainly went with a 5.56x45 chambered weapon instead of 7.62x39 under the influence of the fact that only 18 US troops were killed but 77 survived compared to hundreds of somalis killed outright.

Anyway, the tactics and battle plans are not in question. Neiter, it appears to be an outcome. Many dea, no aideed.

I cannot pose a question any better (open points to debate as you say it) since you stated that I do not know something and I cannot ask what I don't know I need to ask. So I disclosed my total views and let you frame the question for me and answer it.
I was not expecting a debate here but a lecture. Still waiting, btw.

Saurdaukar: We did not go shooting "peasents" to "improve statistics" my dear boy...

You personally may beleive so but in the thread from which this discussion branched out it was something like this:

"Mogadishu, thats where a handfull of special forces killed about a thousand somollies." - in a sence of accomplishment rather than botched operation that was supposed to be bloodless.

and:

"I am a bit surprised that any one could believe that. Werent like 3000 somalis killed for 18 us?
The US surely wasnt beaten they just pulled out and I cant think anyone can doudt that even with that light force they could have killed thousands more." - as long as we kill a lot of people, we can't say we are at a loss, right? And any screwed up operation can be remedied this way - pile up some corpses and report a resounding victory.

miko

Again, it's school time. As soon as you finish the homework I assigned you, instead of taking guesses as to it's content, I'll continue my lecture.

Your obvious failure to try and educate yourself leaves me thankful I didn't take the time to start the lecture forthwith.

miko2d · « **Reply #11 on:** April 01, 2003, 10:51:49 AM »

Martlet: Again, it's school time. As soon as you finish the homework I assigned you, instead of taking guesses as to it's content, I'll continue my lecture.
Your obvious failure to try and educate yourself leaves me thankful I didn't take the time to start the lecture forthwith.

You are full of BS as always. I've just posted a list of books last week that I've ordered at Amazon here - some advised by members of this board who cared enough to give me a taste of their content. Besides them I have a few dozen more waiting to be read on the shelf, accumulated over the last year and a half, subscribtion to "The Economist" and an 18-month boy to raise - that is besides my work and work-related reading and web research.

Yeah, I will drop everything and start reading the books which apparently did not make you any less of a bigoted idiot. If you do not want to tell us your big secret, f#ck off.
Someone else will find a few minutes to enlighten me.

miko

Martlet · « **Reply #12 on:** April 01, 2003, 10:58:47 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by miko2d
Martlet: Again, it's school time. As soon as you finish the homework I assigned you, instead of taking guesses as to it's content, I'll continue my lecture.
Your obvious failure to try and educate yourself leaves me thankful I didn't take the time to start the lecture forthwith.

You are full of BS as always. I've just posted a list of books last week that I've ordered at Amazon here - some advised by members of this board who cared enough to give me a taste of their content. Besides them I have a few dozen more waiting to be read on the shelf, accumulated over the last year and a half, subscribtion to "The Economist" and an 18-month boy to raise - that is besides my work and work-related reading and web research.

Yeah, I will drop everything and start reading the books which apparently did not make you any less of a bigoted idiot. If you do not want to tell us your big secret, f#ck off.
Someone else will find a few minutes to enlighten me.

miko

Obviously, my refusal to be drawn into another one of your propaganda driven bait fests has ticked you off. You not having the time or the desire to educate yourself is hardly my problem, nor does it make me a bigoted idiot.

Keep posting your nonsense. Now that I see it is based on groundless speculation, it will bring me many good laughs. Hopefully your boy will grow up to receive a good american education, and forgive you for your ignorance.

Good Luck.

Frogm4n · « **Reply #13 on:** April 01, 2003, 11:00:31 AM »

i dont think it would have prevented 9/11 at all. these guys dont care of reprisals, they just want to take out as many of us on their way down.

Furious · « **Reply #14 on:** April 01, 2003, 11:06:12 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Martlet
Again, it's school time. As soon as you finish the homework I assigned you, instead of taking guesses as to it's content, I'll continue my lecture.

Your obvious failure to try and educate yourself leaves me thankful I didn't take the time to start the lecture forthwith.

Man, you are looking like a handsomehunk here. You should stop. Really.

F.