Author Topic: 1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!  (Read 388 times)

Offline Karnak

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« on: September 12, 2000, 12:21:00 PM »
Lets take some examples:

According to Jeffrey Quill, Chief Test Pilot of the Spitfire Programme at Supermarine a Mk XIV Spitfire (one of the worst behaved Spits) had to be forced into a stall.  Once it stalled, if the pilot let the controls go neutral, it brought itself out of the stall after two spins.  The pilot had to INTENTIALLY keep it in the stall.  This bears a far greater resemblance to 1.04 than it does to 1.03.

According to VVS tests, a Spitfire Mk IX could sustain a 3.2 G turn.  That means that its engine could keep it at 3.2 Gs.  In 1.04 the Spitfire Mk IX can hold a 3.1 G turn.  In 1.03 it could hold, what, a 2 G turn?  1.04 once again proves to be more accurate.

The Lancaster received the highest review ever given to an aircraft by the RAF’s testing group; “This aircraft is emiently ready for combat and should enter production immediately”.  The Lancaster was one of those rare aircraft that outperformed the manufacturer’s predicted performance.  It almost always went the other way,  with the manufacturer’s predicted performance being overly optimistic.  The last direct decendant of the Lancaster, the Shackleton Maritime Patrol Aircraft left RAF service in 1982.  The Shackleton  is the same size as a Lanc and bears obvious resemblance too it.  The Lancaster should be a high performance bomber.

HARDER DOES NOT MEAN MORE REALISTIC
These aircraft were meant to be flown by boys with only a few hours of flight time in much less powerful aircraft, Tiger Moths and T6 Texans.  Many of the things claimed as realistic would be done with much greater ease when actually flying an aircraft instead of sitting in front of a computer screen.  Things like trimming.  I have never once read something like “I rolled and began to turn to get behind the Me109 but soon realized that I wasn’t going to be able to make it.  With that in mind I adjusted my elevator trim to give me that extra bit of turn capability and managed to get enough of a lead on him to fire.  I watched the fire from the six guns on my Mustang ripple across his aircraft and abruptly he nosed over, pouring black smoke, and dove into the ground”.  Yet that very kind of thing is being claimed as realistic, I don’t understand it.  I have even read a post by somebody who previously had called for ultimate realism now say that while 1.04 might be more realistic he thought that we should return to 1.03 because it was harder.  WHAT?!?  Hardness for hardness sake?  Maybe a bit of elitism going on, the I’m better because I fly AH instead of WB, EAW or FA?

That all said, I do feel there are problems with 1.04’s flight model.

1. The Lancaster should max out at about 25,000 feet not 40,000 feet.
2. The Lancaster may climb to rapidly and have too high a level speed.
3. Aircraft seem to accelerate too rapidly in a dive even without engine power.
4. Aircraft do not seem to decelerate rapidly enough when flying level with out engine power.

Except for issue #1, I do not have any data to counter the way it behaves now.  #s 2, 3 and 4 just “feel off” to me.

CONCLUSSION

I think that 1.04 is more accurate than 1.03.  1.04 still has significant room for improvement, but it is a BIG step in the right direction.

Sisu
-Karnak
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Offline Udie

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2000, 12:30:00 PM »
 I agree w/ Karnak! At first I didn't like 1.04 much at all, but after a few days of playing with it and my new HOTAS I love the dickens out of it.  The 190a8 is competitive again!  I get into more stalls and spins now (i think this is due to the new stick).  Hopefuly the patch today will fix the yaw and torque problems and the FM will be top notch!

WTG HTC!

Udie

Offline Westy

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2000, 01:00:00 PM »
 I hear ya's. I have to say I'm trying to be objective. Having to rebuild my PC at the same time as this latest major patch, trying to recollect my sounds and indivdual aircraft settings, has left me feeling like I'm on Day 2 of the open beta from last year.
 Flying in the last four or fivee tours I really felt like I was 'flying' a WII aircraft when sitting at my computer with Aces High. The last two days with 1.04 I've lost that feeling just about completely. Especially when flying the P-38 which now gets that incredible build of airspeed whenever the nose lowers.
 So, I'm anxious to see how 1.04 re-tunes a few of the FM things and I figure I'm going to have to start the learning curve climb again.
 
 -Westy

Offline -aper-

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2000, 02:19:00 PM »
I found out that the new version is much more challenging for me.

In 1.04 my score has droped drastically. In 1.03 I scored lots of kills due to hard deflection shots from 300 yards. I wasn't needed to see the enemy plane and aimed watching the icons. Now it doesn't work at all. In 1.03 it was very easy to get the six of your opponent traiding E advantage for reducing the radius of turns and get the solution for that one deflection shot that solved the fight. I wonder how many Spitfires I shot down in 1.03 driving 109g6/r6. In 1.04 Spitfires are certainly one of the most dangerous planes for me. And vise versa one of my best score now is against F4U-1C. These planes were sure the main threat to me in 1.03.
1.04 makes me also to learn something how to work with throttle (in 1.03 it was 100% all the time) especially in high-speed manouevers and dives. Yep in 1.04 our planes began to gain speed in dive as they really should do. It's time to forget the bad habits of diving with full throttle all the time. The other bad habit of 1.03 is a sliding landing approach. In real life WWII pilots used to make "box" approach to the field and if the landing speed was still higher than expected they were needed to break and go to the next circle around field. 1.04 feels  better for me in that case also.
In 1.04 109G6 turnes much faster than in 1.03
I managed to make roughly 20 sec turn in 109G6 and 22 sec turn in 109g6/r6 near the ground and it's about 6 seconds less than in 1.03. But the plane feels to be less forgiving and require now more accurate work with stick.

On the whole I like the new features of the FM in the new version and I'm sure HTC is on the right way in improving FM. The only thing I wish for the next version is the improving of stall/spin behaviour/recovery of the planes.

Offline popeye

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2000, 02:42:00 PM »
Agree with Aper.  Not being able to shoot at icons under the nose, and learning to manage the throttle are the big challenges for me in 1.04.  Time to unlearn some bad habits.  

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Offline Camel

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2000, 05:58:00 PM »
Yup Aper!

Those are my feelings also. A squaddie asked how I liked the new version, My first few words where "I love it, Im back to dropping flaps and chopping throt like the old days of AH".

Offline Westy

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2000, 06:22:00 PM »
I'm relieved. The patch allowed me to feel the plane again.

 Now I find I use the virtual views even MORE than I used to for finding the con under my nose or lower quarter.

 -Westy


Offline bloom25

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2000, 10:07:00 PM »
I'm having a blast as well now that I've started to retrain myself to fly.  The best part is that I've managed to kill a couple planes that bounced ME!  That was extremely tough to do unless they made a HUGE mistake in 1.03.  Except for a few warp problems (not HTC's fault I'm sure), I find 1.04 Patch 1 to be a huge improvement to the FM.  



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Offline StSanta

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2000, 11:52:00 PM »
Hm, wonder what happens if I move my head up in the front view, but also make the dot appear higher?

Hm, experiments needed. Will do so when I come home from dreaded AH-away time.



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Offline Duckwing6

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2000, 05:29:00 AM »
I agree with most what you say Karnak but some thing startl me .. how can you say that a warbird is easy to fly ??

How many lifes were lost to takeoff and landing accidents ?

How many pilots crashed after loosing control of their aircraft while manouvering ?

How many pilots died during training ??
As far as i know most of the wartime airforces had a 50/50 loss rate .. which means 50% of the casualties were due to training accients and 50% to enemy fire...

The thought of puting somebody with only a few hours of a texan into a Mustang/ Spitfire /corsair is nothing less than scary to me...

NO these aircraft WERE hard to fly... well maybe not to fly but to land and takeoff for sure!

However there are some differences in how these aircraft were operated at that time, for exaple why did they call it "airfield" ? Because mostly wartime airfields were just that: FIELDS .. mostly big free areas where you could takeoff into the wind all the time and you didn't have to worry if you got 20° off your initial track on takeoff or landing roll ..

And this is what's kind of lacking in the curent FM .. the F4U for example almost flies itselfe of the runway now .. hardly no interference required... is THAT the "ensign Eliminator" ?

DW6

Offline -lynx-

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2000, 05:49:00 AM »
Duck - RAF pilots had ~20 hours before being sent into combat in those Spits and Hurri's... (Watched an interview with a former Spit pilot on Discovery (can't remember his name though )

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Jerry B

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2000, 05:49:00 AM »
I agree with you Karnak - harder does not mean realistic. I've struggled along with previous incarnations of AH(and swear it's given me white hairs), but was always confused by what I'd read of test figures (like those posted by Karnak above), and what the planes in AH could actually do. Duckwing6 makes a good point, but I think all new players to AH crash many times on takeoff and landing, and make alot of mistakes when airbore - but you can always start again and learn from your mistakes. Pilots in real life did not, of course, have that option. There was a pilot's saying along the lines that 'flying is easy - take off and landings are the most difficult'. Ok, flying isn't easy per se because of the physical and mental stresses it puts open you. That said, previous versions of AH needed the pilot to do so much niggly micromanagement of priming the aircraft for every manouevre that that took up too much of your time. And if you got something even slightly wrong, the plane would kick your teeth out as you wallowed about even after even some basic moves.
Apart from a few bugs, I think the latest version is a serious leap forward. But enough of my yakkin'.


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Jerry B

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2000, 05:51:00 AM »
-lynx- : did u see the documentary on Channel 5 a few weeks ago? New Spitfire pilots came straight from flightschool, were shown all the cokpit dials, etc., and were then told 'Off you go'. That was it!

[This message has been edited by Jerry B (edited 09-13-2000).]

Offline Duckwing6

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2000, 06:50:00 AM »
I know lynx .. and the LW in it#s final das satt pilots with as less as 12-15 hours in 109s... but that's my point.. a LOT of them were killed .. and i don't think that if there would have been a choice and not the desperate need for pilots to mann the aircraft (which were produced a lot faster than their pilots could be trained) they wouldn't have put the into these aircraft with so little experience....

DW6

P.s. for the inexperienced there is the auto-takeoff function in AH

Offline Karnak

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1.04 is Arcadish? Too easy? Bah!!
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2000, 10:29:00 AM »
Duckwing6,
I wasn't saying they were EASY per say, but rather they weren't vicious beasts that you had to watch every second or it'd jump you and rip you to itty bitty, bitty bits (in thy mercy).  

I believe that the manual trim method in AH is far harder than it would be in an actual WWII aircraft, assuming that it could retrim in mid-flight.  In an actual aircraft you would have actual tactile and balance feedback that you just can't get from a computer sim.  The digital aspect also makes trimming harder.

The fact is that these were machines designed to fight.  If the pilot had to spend more time, in the middle of the actual fight, thinking about his trim than the enemy, there was something really wrong with that design.  You never read accounts of Spitfire, Hurricane, Mustang, Thunderbolt, Lightning, Bf109, Fw190 or Zero pilots who are constantly retrimming in the middle of a brawl.  Many, if not most, of these aircraft COULD NOT retrim in flight and any "retriming" would have been done by adjusting where you held the stick and what position you defaulted the rudder to.

Landing, particularly on a carrier, and taking off were certainly big pilot killers, but I suspect that if you put that many pilots, with equivilent skill levels, out there in Cessna's, you'd get a similar accident rate on take-offs and landings.  Probably 25 to 33% lower, but still pretty high.

Sisu
-Karnak

P.S.  Some of us never used auto take-off, even when we were learning.  Was never that hard to do, IMHO.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-