Author Topic: Dieppe  (Read 416 times)

Offline skernsk

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5089
Dieppe
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2001, 04:05:00 PM »
It would'nt have to be a TOD, but I did have that in mind.

It could be a "Snapshot"....

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
Dieppe
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2001, 04:12:00 PM »
S! Skernsk

Here is an excerpt from the official British report on the battle done after the fact.  Turns out that the Fortresses mentioned were involved in Dieppe, but not in direct support.  They did make an attack on enemy Fighter airfields during the day.

It would seem there were 50 Squadrons of Fighters, 6 Squadrons of close support Fighters, (carrying some ordanance) 2 Squadrons of dedicated `Hurribombers`, and just 2 Squadrons of day bombers.  (Bostons)  One of the criticisms of the plan which Mountbatten drew up for Dieppe was that there wasn`t enough Ground support aircraft.  The original plans created by the Canadian Divisional Commander Roberts, called for something like 20 Squadrons of daybombers, but Mountbatten bowed to political pressure from the British Strat. bombing Chiefs and reduced the numbers.  Most analysts point to that, as well as not enough Naval bombardment, as a major reason for the failure of the assault.


Here is the report:  (I may have more later)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


"The Air Battle

35. AIR FORCES

In the preceding pages, little reference has been made to the part played by the R.A.F., mainly because, in the natitre of things, our aircraft, though very active, were not often seen from the ground. It should be clearly understood, however, that the air battle was not a separate phase but went on continuously from the first landings until dark, reaching its greatest intensity during the main withdrawal from the beaches.

The air battle was directed by the Air Force Force-Commander, Air Vice-Marshal T. Leigh-Mallory, from H.Q. of 11 Group of Fighter Command at Uxbridge,2 and the immediate operations of fighters were directed by the fighter controller in the Calpe. The Air Forces detailed to take part in the operation were 56 squadrons of day fighters (50 to provide cover and six for close support), two squadrons of Hurricane bombers, two squadrons of day bombers, four squadrons of Army Co-operation forces, and three squadrons of "Smoke forces," in all 67 squadrons. In addition, Coastal Command provided search patrols during the passage of the expedition throughout the dark hours. Bostons carried out bombing attacks on the east headland battery at 0510, after which a smoke screen was laid over both headlands. The two batteries behind the town were also bombed by Bostons, but owing to the haze and the bad light these attacks on the batteries were considered, in the words of C.C.O., " quite ineffective."3 " Intruder" aircraft engaged batteries, the attack by cannon-firing fighters on" Hess" battery being particularly helpful, as has already been mentioned (Sections 20 and 21). Cannon-fighters supported the landing of the troops on Red and White beaches at Dieppe, and further smoke screens was laid as requested by the Naval and Military Force Commanders. Subsequent bombing attacks were made on the east headland when it was seen that the Blue beach landing at Puits was held up. Unfortunately the bombs, like the destroyers' shells, had little effect on the enemy's defences. Nor can it be said that the bombing was very intensive, for the total of bombs dropped amounted only to some 220 bombs of 500 lb and about 90 of 250 lb, a total of 60 tons (see Appendix E). When it was seen that the situation on white beach was deteriorating, attacks were made at about 0930 on the west headland by "Hurribombers" and cannon-fighters.

1 For fuller details, see B.R. 1887, p. 144 et seq.

2 With him throughout the operation were the Chief of Combined Operations and the G.O.C. 1st Canadian Corps. They had before them, on the naval, military and air plots which were constantly kept up to date as signals came in over the very complete W/T and land line system of communications, a complete picture of the action. Except for a number of discussions on various points with the Royal Air Force Commander, the Chief of Combined Operations and the G.O.C. 1st Canadian Corps refrained from interfering with the course of the operation, which the Force Commanders clearly had in hand.

3 BR., p.32.

 

 

40

 

 

41

36. ENEMY AIR OPPOSITION

At the commencement of the operation there was practically no enemy air opposition, the Luftwaffe having evidently been taken by surprise, but as time passed enemy sorties of 20 to 30 fighters appeared, and subsequently the strength of the sorties increased to between 50 and 100 aircraft. Fighter bombers also arrived and some abortive attacks were carried out on our ships, but it was not until about 1000 that heavy bombers appeared escorted by fighters. The heavies were energetically attacked by our fighters and sustained severe losses. The bombers made no attempt to attack our troops ashore and confined their attentions to the ships, but, except for the sinking of the Berkeley, had practically no success.

At 1030 an attack was made by 24 Fortresses, escorted by Spitfires, on the fighter airfield at Abbeville-Drucat, which rendered it unserviceable for two hours and probably severely hampered the enemy fighters at the crucial moment of the withdrawal. During the withdrawal Bostons made bombing attacks on the two headlands, and a thick smoke curtain was laid from the air. From 1200, heavy battles between formations of fighters went on over the ships and beaches, the enemy losing heavily. During the voyage home, fighter cover was maintained over the convoy and all attempts of enemy aircraft to attack the ships were foiled.1 In the air we lost eight bombers and smoke-layers, 10 Army Co-operation and reconnaissance aircraft, and 88 fighters, while our casualties in killed and missing were 113, with 40 wounded. It is estimated that the enemy made 125 sorties with bombers and 600 with fighters. Our total sorties were stated to have been about 3,000.

At the time it was thought that the enemy's air losses were considerably greater than ours and that over a quarter of the German Air Force in Western Europe had been put out of action. German records show, however, that in fact we only destroyed 23 fighters and 25 bombers, while 8 fighters and 16 bombers were damaged.

These bare figures, however, do not tell the whole story. According to reliable German documents, there were in the Luftflotte 3 area (France, Belgium and Holland) 299 fighters and 175 bombers, but of these only 206 fighters and 107 bombers were fully serviceable at the time. Thus about 15 per cent of the serviceable fighters and over 38 per cent of the serviceable bombers were either destroyed or substantially damaged. Since the Spring of 1941, when the bulk of the German Air Force was moved to the eastern front, the small force remaining in the west had operated under severe pressure. The bomber units in particular were showing signs of extreme fatigue, resulting in a serious decline in efficiency of both aircraft and crews. Coming just after substantial losses suffered in the raids on Birmingham at the end of July, the casualties at Dieppe were a heavy blow, particularly as nearly all of the crews were lost,including two Squadron Commanders.

These losses should be viewed, too, in the light of the contemporary position of the German Air Force as a whole. Both in the Mediterranean and on the eastern front it was extremely hard pressed and the bomber force especially was stretched to the limit of its capabilities. In these circumstances it can fairly be claimed that Dieppe was an important contribution to the run-down of the forces in the west, which in turn led to a severe restriction of offensive operations against the United Kingdom and British shipping.

1 B.R., p.164. " The cover and support afforded by No.11 Group, R.A.F. were magnificent." M., para.4.

2 The Germans claim to have brought down 112 of our aircraft. German Report.

3 B.R., pp. 33, 164.

4 Information from Air Ministry Historical Branch."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Dieppe
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2001, 04:23:00 PM »
Skernsk site you posted says Germans were using 109 G-1 models. That was High-Altitude recon.variant with pressurized cockpit with 1475hp DB605A. G-2 was same plane without pressurized cockpit with same armament as in G-1, One 20mm MG151/20 and two 7,9mm MG17.

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
Dieppe
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2001, 04:30:00 PM »
S!

From the report you can see that the bombers used in direct support were Bostons.  Which are most similar to B-26`s, minus the forward firing .50`s.

Offline skernsk

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5089
Dieppe
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2001, 04:33:00 PM »
Thanks for the info Buzzbait.  That is where I first found reference to the B17 being used during the Dieppe raid (although not DIRECTLY in support at the beach).

Staga.  I am certainly no expert in 109's so your info is helpful.  If I continue with the write up I think 109f4 and 109G2 would likely work.  

I was being cautious about what planes to select because (as demonstrated in this thread) people are REAL sticky on the details :)

My fear with using the G2 was that someone would say...err excuse me skernsk but the G2 wasn't in use until Spetember 1942 ONE full month after the Dieppe raid.

I'm going to put my helmet on and tape up the typing fingers next time I mention a TOD idea :D

Offline skernsk

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5089
Dieppe
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2001, 04:36:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S!

From the report you can see that the bombers used in direct support were Bostons.  Which are most similar to B-26`s, minus the forward firing .50`s.

Got ya Buzz.  And rather than SUBSTITUTE for a Boston I chose to ignore them adn use the B17.  This way it is still historically accurate (sort of :)) and people aren;t going to say that the B26 is 20MPH slower so make sure the throttle setting is not on full power.

Another reason to send the B17's to Abbeville is that is spreads the forces out a little better.

I knew about the 70 squadrons that took place including the Bostons Blenhiems etc.  I just chose to go without subbing and to include B17's.

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
Dieppe
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2001, 04:58:00 PM »
S! Skernsk

On the subject of the G2`s...

I know they weren`t in operation on the Meditteranean Front until September/October of `42.  Don`t know if the Gruppen in France received theirs earlier.

As far as the G1`s were concerned, they were only produced in small numbers.  They would not make up the majority of a Staffel let alone a Gruppe or Jagdgeschwader.

I would say the 109F4 was easily the most numerous of the 109`s present, probably 75%.

The Typhoons weren`t being used in the ground attack role at the time.

I guess it depends on the size of the scenario you are designing, (Snapshot or TOD), but if its a TOD, then the B-26 would be the best bet rather than just include the B-17.  There is not much difference in tactical usefulness between the Bostons and B-26.  Fighters are gonna catch either one pretty easily.  Using the B-17G is in many ways more of a difference, since having the chin turret is a BIG defensive bonus.  Up until that was introduced, the German Fighters could make their attacks from 12 o`clock high with only the top turret firing at them, since the single .30 calibre in the nose of the B-17E and B-17F wasn`t much use and often wasn`t manned.

Offline SirLoin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5708
Dieppe
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2001, 05:29:00 PM »
I don't think it's a troll wotan..I hate that word.He has a valid opinion and I repsect it.I think the difference is 1 on 1 vs horde vs horde.1 on 1(or 2  vs 2)a 109f(or g2) can hold it's own vs a spit...But when a high spit approaches,you have little time to react before you're dead meat.It has more to do with the arena than the planes which are very well balanced.I see mucho more N1K2 complaining than spitty's.Now..About those damn LA-7's!!!..  :cool:
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Dieppe
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2001, 05:30:00 PM »
hmm in AH's B-17 ball-turret can shoot up front too, thru the fuselage  ;)

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Dieppe
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2001, 06:50:00 AM »
Quote from site Skernsk linked:
"Operation Jubilee was a raid against Dieppe, France on 19 August 1942"
and
"Opposing the RAF on 19 August 1941(<-Is that a typo?) were JG2 and and JG26 with a combined total of 190 FW 190 A-2 and A-3s and 16 Me 109s (mostly G-1s and a few 109Fs)."

Quote from Wotan's post in This Topic:
"Apr '42 - M.C. 205 first flight; G.55 first flight; Bf 109G-2 enters service with JG 2"

Quote from Baugher's site:
"FOCKE-WULF 190 A-3
Beginning in the spring of 1942, series production of a more powerful engine version BMW 801D-2 that replaced previous versions in the Fw 190Fighter created a new plane version designated as Fw 190A-3. The increase in the BMW 801D-2 engine power (to 1730 kW) was due to a higher compression ratio and higher pressure two-speed compressor. A higher compression ratio and charging pressure made it necessary to use high-octane (96 octane) C3 fuel in place of B4 (87 octane) fuel. Armament of standard Fw 190A-3 planes was the same as in the previous version. Starting from this version, A series airframes were widely used in a big development program with the aim of finding the optimum armament and equipment mix that made it possible to broaden the operational capabilities of the plane beyond fighter operations. The largest part of these modifications were in the form of Umrustbausatz kits, but some did not have special designations and can be recognized only from photographs. The total number of such modified planes is unknown. The best known are the Fw 190A-3 with an under-fuselage mounted bomb rack ETC 501 for carriage of 500 kg of bombs (1x500 kg, 2x250 kg or 4x50 kg on the ER4 adapter) or an external drop tank of 300 liters capacity for long range fighters. Some planes used only for fighter operations (without bomb racks) had a reduced armament by removal of wing mounted MG FF cannons, which was not reflected in a designation."

Look's like AH's FW-190 A-5 could be good substitute for A-3.

[ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: Staga ]

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Dieppe
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2001, 07:32:00 AM »