Dieppe

[Seeker]

An honest request for opinions.....

Reading these boards,  I see a constant anti-Spit whine, which normaly goes roughly along the lines that the Spit shines where the LW planes suck due to:

A) Unhistoric fight altitudes (sub-10K)

B) Lemming-like ganging (could be true, but I reckon applies to all)

C) All pervasive Dar robbing the Lw of the 100% surprise they actually achieved in wartime.

And the reason I titled this Dieppe is that while the Spit's superiority to the 109 had already been clearly demonstrated by end 1940,as far as I'm aware the first time the RAF came up against the 190 in strength was the Dieppe landings, where:

A) The fights were low alt

B) There was tremendous ganging

C) The Lw had absolutly no element of surprise.

......and the RAF had it's arse handed to it.

So I'd like to ask the anti-Spit whiners, in the light of the above:

Just where do you people screw up so badly?

[Wotan]

you're just trolling

name an anti-spit whiner and go check his stats against all vrs of spits in ah.


The spit wasn't "clearly superior" to 109s at the end of 1940. There were a whole host of reasons why the lw was defeated during BoB. Far more that can justify the simplistic term "clearly superior".

IMHO the will not to be defeated did more to defeat the lw then anything else but thats off-topic.

the spitfire is a great plane all round no one I know would be happy if they were't in AH. The current spit planeset in ah is competitive in AH. imho its the best plane for the type of gameplay in the main.

I don't know what your point is. Except maybe to stir the pot some more..

Ah well its your Dime.........

[Buzzbait]

S!

Dieppe was in summer '42, shortly after the 190A4 had come out with the BMW 801 now running at full boost.  At that time, the A4 was easily the superior to the Spit V, as the A5 is its superior in AH.  The 109F4 was also present, what many perceive to be the pinnacle of 109 development vis a vis its opponents, and was no slouch, with a superior climb and top speed, and maneuverability not far off the Spits in the horizontal.

Plus the Brits were still using Hurricane IIC's, which in enviroments where spotting your opponent is much more difficult than in AH, suffered tremendously from its lack of speed and climb.  The Hurricanes were also carrying ground attack ordanance in many cases, as they were the "Typhoons" of their day, which made them even more vulnerable.

This was because the British were focused on ground support for the landing, which meant they were operating at low levels, while the Luftwaffe was focused on disrupting the ground support which meant they almost always had the height advantage.

Plus the Luftwaffe bases were closer to Dieppe, which meant the Luftwaffe could refuel and re-up faster.

That answer your statement?

Finally, the Luftwaffe didn't "hand the Brits their a**es", they inflicted more losses, but suffered quite a few of their own.

[Kweassa]

Hey, we're not 'anti-spit whiners'.

 We're 'anti-spit pilot whiners'  

 Chuck said, "It's the man, not the machine". So, we naturally hate Spit pilots, not Spits  

 ...

 ..but seriously though, Spits were great planes well suited for their task and I think there's no problem with that, at least in my case. It's a superb plane, and one of those planes that is virtually unshakeable from your 6 when you get one behind you at 250 mph  .. but I reckon that's why Spits are great planes. It is undoubtable that they are easy and pleasant to fly.. that's what made them so great in the real war.

 The power and accuracy of those Hispanos still brings out a bit of a frown on my face, though. I imagine things would be a bit different when more sophisticated damage modeling is introduced... or if range indicators disappear when enemy is within 2.0k .. or if the power of Hispanos are turned down a bit.. but even then, the Spit will be a great plane. It always was and always will be  


 It is also

[skernsk]

I wrote a TOD up titled "Wings over Dieppe" we may see that event in the new year

Spits, Hurricane IIc, B17, 109F4, Ju88, 190a5 should be fun.

I'm waiting for the Schtuka and Me110 so we can do a battle of Britain TOD or even better large scenario of Battle of Britain.

[Kratzer]

Kweassa... I've flown a lot of the LW planes with MG151/20s, and I've flown the Spitfires with the 20mm Hispano MkIIs.  I don't think that the Hispano inherently has better accuracy than the MG151, but I do think that the Spitfires are, at lower speeds, easier to make fine adjustments to your aim, which obviously makes it easier to hit, but I don't think that makes a huge difference.  I DO think that the Hispanos, in my experience, do a lot more damage with a single round.  Obviously, it is a more potent round to begin with, but whether or not this is the way it should be, I won't get into - that's just my observation in the game.

I think Spits are very capable planes, and they are forgiving enough to make them a good ride in which to get used to AH.  I also think that, like any other planes, the guy in the cockpit is going to make the real difference, and to do REALLY well in any plane, you have to have everything in one sock.

[Staga]

Skernsk first B-17F raid to Germany(Wilhelmshaven) was in Jan.1943 so 109 should be G-2 or maybe even G-6 if B-17 will be in that scen.  

[Hammerhead]

I thought that the battle of britain was mostly hurricanes vs Bf-110Cs. The 109s if I remember correctly from a BBC documentary, had only 20 mins of fuel to fly over Britian, before they had to turn back.
Thats why the bomber escorts were mostly
Bf-110Cs which quite frankly, I believe even a P51 could outturn at low altitudes.

[skernsk]

Originally posted by Staga:
Skernsk first B-17F raid to Germany(Wilhelmshaven) was in Jan.1943 so 109 should be G-2 or maybe even G-6 if B-17 will be in that scen.    

The raid won't be on Germany.  I found reference to a B17 raid on Abbeville escorted by Spit IX's.

Also, Dieppe raid took place in 1942 so I'm not sure what variant of 109 or 190 SHOULD be used.  I still have some work to do there.  All the info I've found mentions bf109 or fw190 but not the actual model type.

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: skernsk ]

[Seeker]

Skernsk, hook up with AnArky, he has a almost fully developed scenario plan for Dieppe (AW3), perhaps you two could collaborate?

With this new idea of multiple frames on a single day, we can short, well defined actions such as "Dieppe" or "Crete" or "Operation Crossbow" and "Operation Carthage" in real time; which sounds bloody interesting.

Hammerhead: You're right, the Hurri has never had the publicity that the Spit had, while bearing most of the load of the BoB; however the Spit was still vital. Your point about the 110's poor turn rate is valid, but don't forget that they were much faster than a Hurri, and much more heavily armed.

[Nashwan]

Staga, B17s flew their first missions to France 2 days before Dieppe, iirc. (Excluding the few missions flown by RAF B17s)
On the day of Dieppe, B17s raided a German airbase (Abbeville?) escorted by four squadrons of Spit IXs.

Skernsk, JG2 used a mix of 190 A2 and A3 (mainly A2), and 109G1s during the Dieppe raid.

[skernsk]

Skernsk, JG2 used a mix of 190 A2 and A3 (mainly A2), and 109G1s during the Dieppe raid.

We don't have 190A2 or A3 so A5 is the next one I can think of.

109G1 is not available in AH so I chose the 109f4.  

Thanks for the info sir  

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: skernsk ]

[Buzzbait]

S! Skernsk

No B17`s were involved in the tactical support for the Dieppe raid.

Bombers supporting that were Stirlings, Wellingtons, possibly some Bostons, as well as perhaps a few Blenheim IV`s.  
You could possibly use B-26`s as substitutes for the Stirling and Bostons, but if you did, you should have a rule that excludes the pilots using the front mounted .50`s.  You could also use Ju88`s to sub for the Blenheim IV`s.  (similar armament and structure)  The Lancaster was just becoming operational at that time, but I`m not sure whether it was used in the tactical role.

Fighters were Hurricane IIC`s, and Spit V`s.  There were also some of the Typhoon 1A`s active at that time and I believe some of them participated, however, the aircraft was having problems with a weak tail assembly which was prone to fall off in dives and wasn`t a big factor.  Using the Typhoon 1B which was faster and more reliable would not be entirely accurate.  Perhaps a few.  The Hurricanes were used mostly in a Ground support role.  (As you can see, they can carry a pretty good payload)

The Germans had 190A4`s which differed from the A3`s in that they were running at a higher 1.42 Atas Boost, instead of 1.33 in the case of the A3.  The Germans had by then resolved most of the cylinder overheating and failure problems they had with the BMW 801.  To all intents and purposes the A4 had very similar performance to the AH 190A5.  The Messerschmidt was the 109F4.  

For bombers they had Ju88A`s.  I do not believe there were Stukas involved.  I think by then most had been transferred to Russia since they could still survive pretty well in that enviroment, whereas the West was too dangerous.

The British had a significant fleet off the coast in support, although no aircraft carriers.  They also had lots of MTB Torpedo boats and destroyers.

Personally I don`t think the current Europe map would be a good one to use in a Dieppe TOD.  It doesn`t have the aspects which would make the TOD work.

Better to get a smaller scale map done up with correct fleet units plus trains, convoys, barges etc.

[skernsk]

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/dieppe.html

 http://www.wlu.ca/~wwwmsds/341coppairoverdep.htm

The Luftwaffe was thought to have less than 200 fighter aircraft within range of Dieppe so in theory the RAF would outnumber the enemy by more than 3-1, but the actual operation proved such numbers meant very little. All four Spitfire IX squadrons were initially reserved to escort B17 bombers of the USAAF for a raid on the Luftwaffe base at Abbeville. The Americans had attempted their first mission in the European theatre two days before and it seemed wise to offer them maximum protection. On the way home from Abbeville Ken Hodson’s 401 RCAF squadron approached Dieppe descending to 10,000 feet where a flight of Dornier 217s, escorted by FW190s, was starting a bombing run. 401 Sqdn. quickly broke up this attack damaging several bombers and destroying at least one FW190. Pilot Officer Dan Morrison closed to 25 yards before firing a two-second burst and his own aircraft was damaged by flying debris. He was picked up in the water after bailing out at 250 feet.

I haven't got my notes at work here, but a quick search on Google shows several different sources where B17's were used.

Rather than sub B26 for Boston I decided to Sub B17G for B17E which I found reference to.

Personally I don`t think the current Europe map would be a good one to use in a Dieppe TOD. It doesn`t have the aspects which would make the TOD work.

I agree it is not the best, but the Terrain team is maxed out so we'd have to make due with what we have.  At present, Dieppe is not even on the Europe map.

This action took place over a day and we have 3 different frames.  The TOD would be based on the battle (if it even happens) but we obviously would be picking different objectives.

Jugding by some responses here I better check and DOUBLE check my research.

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: skernsk ]

[Seeker]

Would it have to be a TOD? Doesn't that limit it to squads only?