Author Topic: Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft  (Read 1519 times)

Offline F4UDOA

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2003, 09:55:30 AM »
I'm not even going to pretend I understand your equation Zig.

But this much I am pretty sure of.

There are only about 4 variables to consider here.

1. Lift drag- which is the same in both A/C.

2. Parisitic drag- Same in both.

3. Thrust- The FM-2 must have more since it has a superior climb at the same altitude.

4. Weight- The FM-2 is lighter.

The only possible variations are maybe a different prop or rocket launch stubs that could at parasite drag but I can't believe it would be that much different and still outclimb the F4F-4.

Offline frank3

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2003, 11:17:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mister Fork
I just re-did the FM2 test. Yep, she's a slow beast. 57+ seconds.  

Can anyone explain why the FM2 is a slow tard compared to the F4F-4?



Maybe the Wildcat just had a more powerfull engine, that explains why the FM2 has a wep and the wildcat hasnt.

Offline Urchin

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2003, 12:28:21 PM »
Might have the answer here-

Looks like the engine in the FM2 (Wright Cyclone R-1820-56 with single stage  two speed supercharger) put out more power than the Pratt & Whitney R-1830-86 Twin Wasp- up to 10,000 feet.  

Above that altitude the P&W was putting out more power- at 18,000 feet it looks like the F4F-4 would have about 1,100 horsepower while the FM-2 would have about 1,000.

Probably explains the difference in acceleration.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 01:43:22 PM by Urchin »

Offline frank3

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2003, 12:52:51 PM »
hmm, yes...that could be it!

Offline Zigrat

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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2003, 07:04:30 PM »
look at the climb rates though. fm2 is supposed to climb much faster. from the equation i wrote you see dh/dt (climb rate) is directly proportional to dv/dt (accel)

Offline Widewing

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2003, 08:00:02 PM »
Gents, the difference between the F4F-4 and FM-2 is the supercharger.

F4F-4: Two stage, two speed blower.
FM-3: Single stage, two speed blower.

At 18,000 feet, the F4F-4 has 130 more hp available than the FM-2 (1040 vs. 910).

At sea level, the edge goes to the FM-2 with 1,360 vs. 1200 hp.

Superior low alt climb and better maneuverability of the FM-2 can be attributed to greater power and less weight (the FM-2 being coming in about 450 lbs lighter empty).

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline cobia38

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2003, 11:37:35 PM »
test at 30,000 ft :D
                                       (please):)


  Harvesting taters,one  K4 at a time

Offline hazed-

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2003, 04:46:53 AM »
spit5 out accelerates the ta152?  is this due to the weight of fuel 25%  is on the ta152 ?

The wep on the ta152 is very powerful and on the spit5 its almost useless.I would have thought the ta152 would slaughter an old spit5 at 18k+ heights. The HP difference is huge isnt it? weights huge difference?

Offline Kweassa

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2003, 07:09:27 AM »
It was kind of shocking to see the Ta152 scoring about only middle of the list, of all the planes, in the low altitude test results.

 It is more shocking to see the Ta152 still scoring poorly even in 18k test results....

 ...

 I don't think the Ta152's anything worth 20 perks now...

Offline Mister Fork

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2003, 10:03:18 AM »
Initially yes, if the two aircraft , Spit V and the Ta-152, it would seem obvious that the Spit is a faster aircraft AT 18'000 feet.

But at 27'000 ft, the Spit V takes 62 seconds from 175-275 mph, and the Ta-152 only took 37 seconds.

What do my tests show?  At low level engagements, you have to be careful how you enage certain aircraft, and how you extend. If you're low and slow and want to extend in your P-51, if you have a La-5 or La-7 on your six, think again about your decision.  Knowing top speeds and accleration rates help you better understand your aircraft and your fighting abilities.

There are also some aircraft performing well at ALL altitudes. The Bf 109G10, Spit XIV, F4U-4, and the Dora come to mind.  It also shows the Tempest is not an ideal high altitude fighter.

It also shows that higher up, all aircraft perform different than those low down.  It also shows there is a different class of planes to use for high altitude fighting.  For example, you may want to avoid dog fighting a Bf 109 series higher up than down low unless you feel confident enough to defeat the pilot from the initial merge.

Use the data and try to understand the context it fits with respect to the aircraft you are engaging.  Ie. You're in a Spit V at 18-20000 feet and are bounced by Bf 109's.  You know that initially they out accelerate, out climb, and have a higher top speed.  That has an impact in how you engage these aircraft understanding the disadvantages you may face.

That being said, it's the man, not the machine you have to worry about.  But the man, flying his machine, understanding his strengths and weaknesses and those of his opponents makes him a much better fighter pilot.
"Games are meant to be fun and fair but fighting a war is neither." - HiTech

Offline frank3

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2003, 01:57:58 PM »
I hate to see the spit ouperformes the P-47 and P51...:(
tho the P38 does a good job :)

Offline HoHun

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2003, 07:58:30 PM »
Hi Widewing,

>At 18,000 feet, the F4F-4 has 130 more hp available than the FM-2 (1040 vs. 910).

Actually, in military power the R-1800-56 of the FM-2 yields 1000 HP at 17800 ft. Your figure seems to be for continous power.

Additionally, the F4F-4 with 25% fuel weighed in at about 3300 kg compared to the FM-2's 2935 kg.

10% less weight at 5% less power should make the FM-2 the better accelerating aircraft I'd say.

The Me 109E-4 with around 1000 HP at just 2380 kg should pass them both easily.

I'd expect the Me 110C-4/B with 2100 HP at 6140 kg to accelerate slightly better than the F4F-4.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline AdmRose

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2003, 11:18:25 PM »
*removes the oxygen system from his P-40*

Won't be needing this anymore. :rolleyes:

Offline dtango

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2003, 06:42:56 PM »
Mister Fork:

What were the initial and final velocities for your tests for the F4F and FM-2?

Did you use IAS or TAS readings for initial and final velocities?

Tango, XO
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Offline Mister Fork

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Fighter Acceleration Results: 18'000 ft
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2003, 09:38:54 PM »
Hi DT (hey, I remember you from the 412 ;) )

I used TAS as the indicator

Vo was 175Mph TAS for ALL aircraft*
Vf was 275Mph TAS for ALL aircraft*
"Games are meant to be fun and fair but fighting a war is neither." - HiTech