Author Topic: This setup is boring  (Read 1567 times)

Offline Sakai

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Re: This setup is boring
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2003, 03:51:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
1v1 none of the Allied planes stand a chance against a A6M2.  Period.  

This means two things- it is boring for the U.S. side if they choose to fly in 1's and 2's, and it is boring for the Japanese side when they inevitably decide to come in in 3's and 4's at 20k.  

No, I don't have a solution, I just felt like squeaking.


Depends on how they fly.  If you fly the Wildcat right it aint a bad plane against the Zeke, you simply cannot do low alt furballing 1 v 1.  Guys who fly teh Thatch weave do quite well.  In Burma guys were routinely landing 2-5 kills on Japanese planes in SBDs.  Should we perk the SBD?

I have noticed the zeros seem to do OK at high altitude, was the early zeke a decent high-alt performer?  I thought US Iron was decidedly better at elevation than the Zero?

I think this setup lends itself to 2 kinds of stupidity:  1, HOing allies.  I see HOs from guys in 4-1s against planes that have no chance (Vals, Kates) that's lame.  I mean, as Arlo says, perhaps some circumstance require it, but joust warrior under any and all circumstances? Joust warrior is widely regarded as "historically proper" but it really detracts from the CT when that is the only type of combat you see regardless of what is occurring.  I fall down laughing when guys who HO complain about the vultch.  If the Vultch is not a superior way to engage an enemy aircraft, which some claim the HO to be, then I simply don't know what they mean by "superior method of enemy engagement" when they play Lord La-tee-dah and act as if such explanations jive with the reality of a flight sim game (note the term game).

The second is the Uber Jap Bomber phenom where the fast Jap bombers essentially play Gunship and run over a base luring guys up to high alts where the heavily armed buffs eat the piddling Allied fighters up.  This is assinine--Betty, Helen, Sally and Nell buffs (the twin engine mediums the Japanese had in the early going) would never pull that crap off.  

Sakai
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Offline Batz

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This setup is boring
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2003, 04:17:39 PM »
you have it completely backwards Sakai.

The F4f is better down low. The zeke (a6m2) is better up high.

But the zeke is only relly good at 300mph, above the 350 or so the f4f can out manuver the a6m2. The problem is below 300 the f4f will accellerate much better then the a6m2 and at lo alts (under 5k) the f4f is 17 mph faster.

The F4F "flown" correctly should spend most of its time running and extending. Keeping the fight fast and above 350 is the best way to fly it.

But if your in an a6m2 it gets pretty boring chasing folks around.

The a6m2 guns are mostly effective inside side 250m. This presents a problem in that as long as an F4F keeps room underneath of him he can dive away should the a6m2 begin to get close. He then just extends away and comes back high.

The a6m2 is an energy fighter like the 109. Ideally you want to come into the fight with a moderate (2k) alt advantage and use short sprint dives to gain a guns solution or to force the f4f to bleed e in manuvering. Once hes slow then the a6m2 tears him up.

It doesnt take any skill or genious to figure this out. As long as the f4f keeps this in mind he stands a good chance of boring the a6m2 pilot to death.

The a6m2 will outclimb the f4f and the higher up you go the more manuverable the a6m2 is provided you manage your speed.

The a6m2 should never dive to evade but take advantage of its turning ability. Turning into the attacker in an attempt to trick him into a turn fight or bleeding his e. Any pilot who has flown any considerable time in flight sims wont fall for it.

But if he does the a6m2 owns.

Offline HiJack

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This setup is boring
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2003, 04:39:03 PM »
Dont quite understand this HO stuff, 2 planes converge they fly past with no damage they both turn into each other trying to get the advantage and oops here we are looking at each other eye to eye again. Now my experience has been does this guy intend to HO? Hmmm maybe I should turn away then he could have the advantage, no ill stay eye to eye with him and maybe he wont shoot, hmmm bad choice, most of the time Im in a ho situation and I win the ho the guy says, can you do anything but ho? Usually I say nothing but thinking to myself, why didnt you avoid the HO, and after all you were shooting at me. So if someone could give this dumb ole Army Paratrooper on what to do it would be appreciated, if not Im gonna ho ur as- being that Im a piss-poor pilot and cant give any advantage what soever to my adversary. Yes ive heard before some of the so called moves to avoid the ho but, what the hell let the other guy make em!

Offline najdorf

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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2003, 04:47:37 PM »
Nifty,

I will admit that I don't know the exact location of daddog when I was getting beat up, although it was somewhere in the area and I know I got zero help.

I also know that when I was just about to get the guns solution on the wildcat, daddog came zooming over the top of me and shot the wildcat down.  I was in no danger, I worked this guy to get him where he was and daddog flies in and pops him out of nowhere.  We were the only 3 planes up in the area at the time.

Maybe he thought he was helping, I really don't see how he could think I needed it in that situation, but I don't need that kind of help.

Offline TimRas

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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2003, 04:00:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by najdorf
Nifty,

I will admit that I don't know the exact location of daddog when I was getting beat up, although it was somewhere in the area and I know I got zero help.



When the friendly is just in within the icon range (6000yds) it takes about one minute to get  into fight (provided that the fight don't move away from the plane, or the plane is not at lower alt, then it takes even longer). Even from 2000yds it can take 15-20 secs. This feels an eternity when you are in trouble. Many times i have seen friendly planes got shot down nearby as I was just unable to get there in time. Shooting down a plane doesn't require many seconds, ya know.

Offline Nifty

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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2003, 09:02:23 AM »
HiJack, turning nose to nose to gain advantage results in front quarter shots.  That is NOT a head on.   A HO'er is one that comes in on the initial merge, tries his damnedest to shoot you in the face, extends out 2000+ yards, reverses and tries it again.  No attempt is made to gain angles, or to decrease angle off tail.

Now going back to the constant front quarter passes that occur in flat turns, there are a couple of things you can do.  First, you can take your turn out of plane by going into the vertical.   Sometimes by doing so, you can roll your lift vector onto where the bandit will end up if he continues his flat turn.  This can provide you with the opportunity for a safe snapshot (compared to the dangerous front quarter passes you've talked about) or to gain the angles advantage and work for the rear quarter shot.  Another thing you can do is to switch the turn, if it's advantageous to do so.  

Almost all turns in Aces High 1 v 1's seem to be nose to nose turns (you turn left, bandit turns right and you form one circle, and basically get a flat scissors in a stalemate.)  The advantage in this turn is first to the plane that turns tighter (smaller turn radius.)  Also, a plane with a roll-rate advantage can do well in the nose to nose, as you have to reverse the turn after the pass to continue nose to nose (and almost every AH adversary does this.)  So what you can do is switch the turn to nose-to-tail by continuing the turn and not reversing it as your opponent is still doing (if he doesn't reverse either, then it's still nose-to-nose.)  In an initial nose-to-tail the plane with the faster turn rate, not turn radius, will gain the advantage.  By switching to a nose-to-tail from a nose-to-nose you gain an initial advantage by not having to reverse your turn.  You will also increase the lateral separation, giving you more space to take advantage of your decreased angle off tail.

The best thing to do is go into the more advantageous turn immediately after the intial merge.  You need to know your enemy's capabilities and have a good judge of his speed/E-state.  If you enjoy an E-advantage+climb advantage at the merge, going vertical is good.  If he goes with you, you'll be able to get on top of him and dictate the fight.  If he doesn't, he's meat on the table.  If the E-advantage is his and you both go vertical, he'll probably get the angles.  If he doesn't, you can possibly gain angles on his flat turn.  If you both go for flat turns, going nose-nose is preferred if you are slower, yet turn tighter.  If you turn faster, yet not as tight, go nose-tail.

The real trick is to be able to do all of this without thinking consciously about it.  That's something I can't do.  ;)  I gotta think, and it gets me killed more often than not.

Of course, all this is moot when there are more of them than there are of you.  :p
proud member of the 332nd Flying Mongrels, noses in the wind since 1997.

Offline Sakai

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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2003, 09:35:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
you have it completely backwards Sakai.

The F4f is better down low. The zeke (a6m2) is better up high.

The F4F "flown" correctly should spend most of its time running and extending. Keeping the fight fast and above 350 is the best way to fly it.



I think that's inaccurate.  The F4F is faster down low, but not better.  If it is down low it has only one trick as you note, running away.  It simply cannot turn fight with a zeke at low speeds as you also note.

That is precsiely what I meant when I said "properly flwon" F4Fs--extend and hit again.

I didnot think historically that the zeke was a better perfomrer at alts of say 9-15k.  I knew the later American planes were deadly at altitude.  

Sakai
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Offline Urchin

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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2003, 01:41:54 PM »
Neither the A6M2 nor the early American planes were particularly stellar at high altitude (above 12k or so) but the Zero was at a definate advantage due to lower wing loading.

Offline Sakai

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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2003, 03:17:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
Neither the A6M2 nor the early American planes were particularly stellar at high altitude (above 12k or so) but the Zero was at a definate advantage due to lower wing loading.



Hmmmmm . . .thought the two stage supercharger that mase it perform a tad better at alt came online in the A6M3.  Ours is the M2 no?

Sakai
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Offline Urchin

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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2003, 03:53:11 PM »
Neither the A6M2 or the F4F (or the P-40B) had turbo-supercharging that would allow the engine to give the same power up to 30,000 feet (or so).  I'll have to check my books, but I believe the the P-40B had a single stage single speed supercharger that gave good performance up to 15,000 feet or so and then started to suck.  The F4F-4 had a two-speed two-stage supercharger that was good up to around 18,000 before engine power really started to drop off.  The A6M2 had a single-stage single-speed (I think) supercharger that started running out of steam at around 14,000 feet.

The F4F gave out more power than the Zeke until the F4F's supercharger ran out of steam, but the zeke still had lower powerloading (it was a lot lighter) and lower wingloading (again, it was lighter), thus giving it higher performance at altitudes where none of the planes were really performing their best.  If I recall correctly, I read some pilot's accounts that said the F4F really started to wallow above 20,000 feet, while the A6M was good for about another 4,000 feet above that.  The P-40B would be hard pressed to even climb that high, and it undoubtedly wouldn't give very good performance once it was up there.

Offline HiJack

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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2003, 05:13:50 PM »
Thanks Nifty, so when after the initial merge you go nose to nose its really a front quarter shot, then why in the heck do some of these guys go, " is all you know HO?, learn how to fly" guess some have different ideas of what HO means! Really doesnt matter to me, I just try to kill the enemy plane however I can, but very rarely to I fire on the merge, unless of course he has cannons and I have 6 or 8 mgs that reach a little farther hehe! Thanks Nifty, and oh by the way Daddog is one of the nicest, fairest guys around, I met him at last years con and dont blame you for standing up for your CO !

Offline Batz

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« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2003, 05:58:11 PM »
The F4F is better lo, if an a6m2 comes in say 8k and your f4f is at 4k the a6m2 while diving to pursue will easily climb above 350 or at that speed the f4f can out turn it. The f4f can easily out accellerate the a6m2 and has 17 mph top speed advantage.

But the the F4Fs accelleration is key. If the the a6m2 bleeds e al the f4f has is a shallow dive and extend. Noty only does it have a higher top speed but its accelleration advantage allows it to reach that speed before the a6m2 gets even close. Out side 350m the a6m2 guns are weak.

The F4f can hardly pull a 2g turn at 20k with out losing alt. The a6m2 has a clear advantage above 15k.

Heres a pdf comparing the a6m2 to the f4f that Badboy did for midway.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Info/Midway.pdf

The only thing that alt gives the f4f is room to dive away.

Why would ever wanna turn wirth an a6m2 at any alt?

Even if he close a shallow dive using the f4fs accelleration and high speed handling is enough to escape. The a6m2 doesnt have the spray n pray factor that 50 cal planes have.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2003, 06:01:38 PM by Batz »

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2003, 06:12:42 PM »
LOL ... if this keeps up the F4F will be banned from the CT for being too uber. ;)

Offline Batz

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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2003, 06:33:42 PM »
I know its hard for you to follow anything but the most simple discussions but the first line in this thread is

Quote
1v1 none of the Allied planes stand a chance against a A6M2. Period.


No where does anyone say the f4f is too good. As a matter of fact is such a pos that the only way it can do well is if it bores the a6m2 pilot to death or comes back with numbers. Its only advantage are its guns and its ability to dive and run.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2003, 06:43:50 PM »
Wotan: {whining} The F4F is too faster and accelewates wike a bat outa hell. It can get away easy. Not unwike dee F4UuuuUUUuuuu! It's faster therefow uber. And it has fifty cawiber machineguns which is unfair. But we'll wet you swide with dis one becawse we can't vewy well ban awl of dee USN pwanes, can we?


Bwahahahahahaha

:D