Arms sales to Iraq

[rc51]

Originally posted by miko2d
Cost of obsolete russian tanks and AK-47s purchased from USSR - gazillion dollars.

 Cost of a few drums of poison gas, satellite intelligence and weather info and targeting information  to use that gas with maximum effect "donated" by US - priceless.

 miko

Funny how a guy who plays a computer game would just happened to have a top secret security clearance to know
what you know.
WOW i am impressed .
Translation( this arse clown is talking out his butt.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by miko2d
Cost of obsolete russian tanks and AK-47s purchased from USSR - gazillion dollars.

 Cost of a few drums of poison gas, satellite intelligence and weather info and targeting information  to use that gas with maximum effect "donated" by US - priceless.

 miko

Yah know.. for a libertarian, who believes in profits on all things, you of all people should appreciate the finess of selling saddam the rope we decided to hang him with... IF THAT WERE INDEED THE CASE.

BUT.. being a libertarian, you also have that marvelous ability to ignore facts, create some new ones, and use them gleefully to demonstrate just how horrible and anti-humanistic the american government is (corporate libertarian enemy #1).

PROOF PLEASE!!

Precisely WHAT did we sell them?? No, no, no... please; no anti-government propaganda leftie diatribe.. just the facts. What did 'the government' sell Iraq? And what did corporations sell Iraq?  And what would these corporations still be selling Iraq if the government didn't stop them?

gawdamned libertarians!!! Propaganda spinmeisters!!!

Targeting Info?? PROVE IT!

Intelligence??  Disseninated to Hussein for the explict purpose of gassing ANYBODY??

PROVE IT!!!!!!

Fact is, these lies have been so oft repeated it's taken as gospel.

Peddel the Propaganda Mobile back up yer hill, Miko.

[Torque]

You lived in a free and democratic society right?

Congressional Record: September 20, 2002 (Senate)
Page S8987-S8998

[Rasker]

Fox reports that French made anti-aircraft missiles were found in a newly opened tunnel complex.  Speculation that these missiles had something to do with the loss of that A-10

[Replicant]

Very interesting, thought as much!

[miko2d]

Torque: Congressional Record: September 20, 2002 (Senate)
Page S8987-S8998

 Right. Thanks - here they are http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s092002.html

miko

[miko2d]

More info  Here is more info with references:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/USimperialism/UScovertactions/USknowledgeIraqchemwarfare1988.htm

1        US complicity in the development of Iraq's illegal weapons programs.
a         The U.S.

i      Summary.

(A)   According to congressional records from the early 1990s, the Reagan administration’s commerce department allowed the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and U.S. companies exported chemical and biological agents to Iraq despite suspicions that they were being used for chemical warfare. It was later discovered that these agents did indeed significantly contributed to the country’s weapons arsenal. [Sunday Herald 9/8/2002; The Times 12/31/02] Iraq was even provided with anthrax and bubonic plague viruses. [Washington Post 12/30/02]

 

ii      Evidence.

(A)   Summary.

(1)     William Blum, a former employee of the State Department and author of the book, Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II and Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower, revealed in an article first published in 1998 that “the furnishing of chemical and biological materials by the United States to Iraq  . . . markedly enhanced Iraq's CBW capability.”  [Yellow Times 8/20/2002]

(B)    1994 Senate Committee Reports. [May 25 report and October 7 report]

(1)     According to the reports, the U.S. Department of Commerce approved the export of the following agents to Iraq.

(a)     Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax. [Yellow Times 8/20/2002; Sunday Herald 9/8/2002]

(b)     Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.  It was sold to Iraq right up until 1992. [Yellow Times 8/20/2002; Sunday Herald 9/8/2002]

(c)     Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord and heart. [Yellow Times 8/20/2002]

(d)     Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs. [Yellow Times 8/20/2002; Sunday Herald 9/8/2002]

(e)     Clotsridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness, gas gangrene. [Yellow Times 8/20/2002; Sunday Herald 9/8/2002]

(f)      Clostridium tetani, highly toxigenic. [Yellow Times 8/20/2002; Sunday Herald 9/8/2002]

(g)     Also, Escherichia Coli (E.Coli); genetic materials; human and bacterial DNA.  [Yellow Times 8/20/2002]

(h)     VX nerve gas.  [Sunday Herald 9/8/2002]

(i)       Pralidoxine, an antidote to nerve gas which can also be reverse engineered to create actual nerve gas.  This was sold to Iraq in March 1992, after the end of the Gulf war. [Sunday Herald 9/8/2002]

(2)     Additional US exports to Iraq, according the reports.

(a)     Examples.

(i)                   Chemical warfare-agent production facility plans and technical drawings. [Newsday 12/13/02]

(ii)                 Chemical warfare filling equipment. [Newsday 12/13/02]

[miko2d]

More info

5        Description of U.S. aide to Iraq during the latter's war with Iran
a         Aid from U.S. Government

i      Military.

(A)   Description

(1)     It was covert. [New York Times 8/18/2002]

(2)     U.S. Air Force officers were secretly deployed to Iraq to assist their counterparts in the Iraqi military.  [The Nation 8/26/2002].

(3)     The U.S. provided satellite photography to Iraq revealing the movements of the Iranian forces.  [New York Times 8/18/2002]

(4)     The U.S. provided Iraq with intelligence gathered by Saudi-owned AWACS, which were being operated by the Pentagon.  The Nation 8/26/2002

(5)     According to The Washington Post,  “Iraq reportedly used the intelligence to calibrate attacks with mustard gas on Iranian ground troops . . .”   [Washington Post 12/15/1986]

(6)     The U.S. helped plan Iraq’s war plan, the New York Times revealed on August 18.  It reported that according to “senior military officers with direct knowledge of the program”, “more than 60 officers of the Defense Intelligence Agency were secretly providing detailed information on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for airstrikes and bomb-damage assessments for Iraq.”  [emphasis added] [New York Times 8/18/2002]

(1)     In a 1995 affidavit, Howard Teicher who had accompanied Rumsfeld to Baghdad in 1983, described how both President Reagan and Vice President George Bush personally delivered military advice to Saddam Hussein, both directly and through intermediaries. He stated in his affidavit that the United States “actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure Iraq had the military weaponry required.” [Teicher Affidavit; Washington Post 12/30/02] In the affidavit, he also wrote that the “United States also provided strategic operational advice to the Iraqis to better use their assets in combat. For example, in 1986, President Reagan sent a secret message to Saddam Hussein telling him that Iraq should step up its air war and bombing of Iran. This message was delivered by Vice President Bush who communicated it to Egyptian President Mubarak, who in turn passed the message to Saddam Hussein. Similar strategic operational military advice was passed to Saddam Hussein through various meetings with European and Middle Eastern heads of state. I authored Bush’s talking points for the 1986 meeting with Mubarak and personally attended numerous meetings with European and Middle East heads of state where the strategic operational advice was communicated.” In reporting on this affidavit, NBC News noted, “Critical to Iraqi success was finding a way to overcome Iran’s human wave attacks which persisted throughout the war, although Teicher’s affidavit gives no indication that the United States condoned the use of chemical weapons, which were used against those human-wave attacks. Nevertheless, the U.S. government certainly was aware of how important it was to Iraq to stop those human wave attacks.” [Teicher Affidavit; NBC News 8/18/02]

(B)    Observations.

(1)     As a result of U.S. military aid, “Iraq improved its accuracy in targeting, hitting Iran's bridges, factories, . . . power plants relentlessly, and . . . Iranian oil terminals in the Lower Gulf.” [The Nation 8/26/2002]

 
6        Reagan administration’s knowledge that Iraq was using chemical warfare.
a         Evidence.

i      Declassified documents.

(A)   On November 1, 1983, U.S. State Department official Jonathan T. Howe told Secretary of State George P. Shultz that intelligence reports indicated that Saddam Hussein's troops were resorting to "almost daily use of CW [Chemical Weapons]" against their Iranian adversaries. [Washington Post 12/30/02]

 

ii      Press reports.

(A)   An August article in The Nation, explained, “Iraq's use of poison gases to regain the Fao Peninsula, captured by Iran in early 1986, was so blatant that the United Nations Security Council could no longer accept Baghdad's routine denials. After examining 700 Iranian casualties, the UN team of experts concluded that Iraq used mustard and nerve gases on many occasions.” [The Nation 8/26/2002]

(B)    Prior to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, the Reagan administration had mobilized the House to block an attempt by the Senate to punish Iraq for its violation of the Geneva Protocol on Chemical Weapons, to which Iraq was a signatory.  As noted by The Nation, “This led Saddam to believe that Washington was firmly on his side--a conclusion that paved the way for his invasion of Kuwait and the 1991 Gulf War.” [The Nation 8/26/2002]

(C)    The August 18 edition of the New York Times reported that according to “senior military officers with direct knowledge of the program”, “Lt. Col. Rick Francona, now retired, was sent to tour the battlefield with Iraqi officers.  . . .  He reported that Iraq had used chemical weapons to cinch its victory.  . . .  Colonel Francona saw zones marked off for chemical contamination, and containers for the drug atropine scattered around, indicating that Iraqi soldiers had taken injections to protect themselves from the effects of gas that might blow back over their positions.”   [New York Times 8/18/2002]

(D)    The August 18 edition of the New York Times reported that, according to “senior military officers with direct knowledge of the program”, “The American intelligence officers never encouraged or condoned Iraq's use of chemical weapons, but neither did they oppose it because they considered Iraq to be struggling for its survival.”  [New York Times 8/18/2002; NBC News 8/18/02]

(E)     The August 18 edition of the New York Times reported that, according to “senior military officers with direct knowledge of the program”, “The Pentagon's battle damage assessments confirmed that Iraqi military commanders had integrated chemical weapons throughout their arsenal and were adding them to strike plans that American advisers either prepared or suggested.”  [New York Times 8/18/2002]

(F)     On August 18, NBC News reported, “Although U.S. officials deny that the United States looked the other way while Iraq used American intelligence data to plan chemical weapons assaults against Iran in the 1980s, there is evidence in declassified State Department cables and court records to indicate that even though the United States was aware that Iraq had used chemical weapons against Iranian troops, it was ready to help Iraq in thwarting Iranian ‘human-wave’ attacks. … The Iraqis used chemical weapons mainly to halt the Iranian ‘human wave’ attacks beginning in 1983, although they also used cluster bombs and fuel air explosives. Indeed, the record shows that in 1983, Rumsfeld — then President Reagan’s special envoy to the Middle East, now secretary of defense — told senior Iraqi officials that the use of poison gas ‘inhibited’ normal relations between the two countries.  Specifically, Rumsfeld’s trip was the subject of several State Department cables from 1983. Some of the language from the cables is redacted, and much of what remains is couched in diplomatic-speak.” [NBC News 8/18/02]

 So we helped them obtain the chemical weapons, provided them with operational and tactical intelligence, weather and targeting info - which they used for their military operations, including those with chemical weapons.

 miko

[Puke]

Actually, we supplied chemical weapons to Iraq because they were about to lose the war with Iran.  At that time in the world, it was felt it would create a large vacuum in the region.  At that time, Saddam had really only been charge of Iraq for a short time and it is only now that we can look back and see just how evil he really is.  But those chemical weapons were supplied to be used only in a last-stand scenario, if Iraq would fall.  But, Saddam used them on the offensive.  Very ugly, and it's a shame.  I guess the only good out of that was that it ended a stalemated war that was a slaughter of men, children, elders and even women thrown into battle/slaughter.  A war Saddam did start, but due to the threats that Iran would export its revolution to its neighbors and who began shelling Iraq prior to Iraq invading Iran.  But this was early in Saddam's "career" and no one really had the view that we have now from 2003.  I'm really not sure what your point is or what your problem is.  If it is that the USA did make mistakes, then you are right and I think most people will agree the USA has not always been perfect.  But if you think the USA is some giant monolithic evil entity and that we've done the worst on the subject of Iraq, then I will argue with you and most others on this board seem to do the same.  I personally think giving Saddam the "bomb" is worse than chemical weapons, and I look directly to France and the USSR for that moronic move.  But your original post that I replied to was a direct comparison of the evil between the USA and the USSR and most here have shown you that there is no comparison.  USSR supplied (according to that graph above) almost 60% of all weapons to Iraq.  That doesn't  include nuclear freakin' capability to a country that doesn't need nuclear energy and to a leader who we all know is seeking nuclear weapons, who is a megalomaniac and who has no second-thought to killing to remain in power or to gain power.  Can you state your point in one sentence for me?  Just your point, don't try to prove it, I just want to know what you are getting at.  And why only harp on the USA's mistakes?  Other countries made them too, but you do not enlighten us to all those facts so it really appears as though you have a problem with my nation.

[AKIron]

You put a lot of faith in the press there Miko. Have you verified any of those accounts by the New York Times? Are you always so trusting of US media?

[Hangtime]

The Congressional record relates a liberal left senator quoting a newsweek article, and the presentation, made in 2002, was part of a partisan attack against the republican administration.

I could, if elected, stand in front of the congress and read a detailed diatribe on monkey ass, and it would be a part of the congressional record.

The fact the accusation is made, here on the BBS or as a part of the congressional minutes does not make it true.

Inuendo, murky unnamed sources, and a wish to advance a muckraking agenda does not constitute any proof.

Next, you post a link to and quote extensively from the "center for co-operative research" website.. a nice official sounding name.

It is, in fact a libertarian slanted site with a bent to REWITE history, while at the same time calling for a revolt and revolution here in america.

From the sites 'philosophy' page;

THE REVOLUTION IS AT HAND!  CCR believes that real historical changes are not the result of new ideas, philosophies, or the extraordinary actions of individual actors.  Rather we contend that the real movers in human history are the changes that the progression of history imposes on technology, the organization of systems of production and distribution, and the interaction of these two factors with ideologies, culture, exogenous events, and other important institutions and processes.
Stemming from this view, is our belief that the only real hope for resolving the current global disorder is for people to actively participate in the development of new technologies and new methods of organization that will decentralize both the production and distribution of needed goods.  Tyranny, in both the state and corporate form, is dependent on the existence of systems of production and distribution that are capital intensive in nature.  For example, when it takes millions of dollars of capital investment to build the necessary means of production for energy, it logically follows that the owners of that means of production will yield tremendous power.  But, when it becomes economically feasible for households to produce their own energy with solar panels and fuel cells the political economy of energy production will forever change.  

The application of this principle to as many productive and distributive processes as possible is the real challenge of those who yearn for lasting social justice and peace.

A qcick scan of the home page reveals something nasty and ugly brewing here.. and lies and inuendo are happily interspersed with current events and recent calamities to paint a picture of a horrible evil government bent on stealing your babies and eating them.

Miko.. try again.

harder.

in traffic.

[miko2d]

I do not trust everything a priori. I am sure a lot is exagerrated.

 Still, I do not believe they falsified the statements by US congressmen and government officials.

 Do you really think that US cooperation with the "lesser evil" Iraqi regime which was fighting the same enemy we  were - raise of militant shia fundamentalism in Iran - is a complete fabrication?

 If I were here 15 years ago, it would certainly have seemed like a good idea to me.
 Much like arming and supplying the OBL and his guys. That did happen, right?

 Do not confuse my admission that US govt. did something that backfired with accusations that US govt. had some evil intents to start with. They certainly could not look into the future in those cases or when they toppled the socialist Iranian regime of Mossadeh in 53 or Iraq's regime of Nassem in 63 in favor of Ba'ath or the coup in Indonesia, etc.

 I just stated that US covertly heped Iraq which is not reflected in the chart based on the published data. Hangtime flew off the hande, since he sees treason in any statement of mine. Nothing new.

 miko

[blitz]

Damn, german Heckler & Koch guns no good any more , grrr


USA on paar with Lybia, as ever



Regards Blitz

[Hangtime]

I asked for proof, miko; you posted ass.

and tried to put a wall of text up as cover.

then you tried to dodge again.

I just stated that US covertly heped Iraq which is not reflected in the chart based on the published data. Hangtime flew off the hande, since he sees treason in any statement of mine. Nothing new.

I agree.. you attempting to slam the government, past, present and future is nothing new.

And I will continue to spotlight your anti-government agenda as what it is.

Disgusting hipocracy.

[rc51]

I could, if elected, stand in front of the congress and read a detailed diatribe on monkey ass, and it would be a part of the congressional record

LOL how true bro.