More Japanese Planes!

[Karnak]

J_A_B,

I understood that the B6N had protection.

Am I wrong?

[Bullethead]

J_A_B said

Heh heh I would never even use the Frank (only Japanese plane I can stand is the Tony) and I still clamor for it  

As much as I loved AirWarrior, how a plane performed in AW wasn't necessarily based upon reality.  AW's total lack of accurate flightmodeling was its biggest drawback, and the biggest reason got little respect as a "serious" flightsim in the last few years.

The Ki-84 would fit right in here in AH--in most ways it'd be a little inferior to the N1K2.

AW's FM got progressively worse over time, but even when the FM was fairly good the Ki84 was an uberplane, and correctly so given the stats I've seen for it.  At the low alts where most MA fights take place, it was as fast or faster than the P51, and it could turn nearly as well as a spit9.

The MA planeset should be like rock-paper-scissors.  Each plane should be good at some things but other planes should beat it in different categories.  The problem with the Ki84 is that it's too good at too many things.  It can run down anything that turns worse than it does, it can outrun everything that turns better than it does, it's got good guns, and decent ammo.

The Ki84 would be, IMHO, like a Yak9U only worse.  I already hate Yak9Us.  They can run down any prop plane in the game and make even 262s be careful with their speed.  And when they catch them, they can outturn them.  The only thing that keeps Yak9Us from being the only plane ever flown for air-to-air is its weak guns and short clip.  If we get a plane that combines this type of performance with good guns and ammo, we'll soon be swamped with them.  It doesn't matter if you personally won't fly it, the thousands of dweebs out there who want an edge will jump on it.

All this said, I could accept the Ki84 in the planeset.  It was significant enough in real life to be worthy of inclusion, certainly moreso than some things we already have like Ta152Hs.  However, if we do get the Ki84, IMHO it absolutely must be perked about as heavily as the Tempest.  Otherwise, it would have a very detrimental effect on variety in the MA.

[J_A_B]

"but even when the FM was fairly good the Ki84 was an uberplane"

That would be because it was added with funds from a certain Japanese company, and the modeling was "optimistic" at best (actually it used post-war test data that was far superior to what the KI achieved in Japanese wartime service).  

As for the Yak-9U, its inferior to the LA7 in pretty much every signifigant way.  IMO the LA7 is the basis of "best non-perked fighter in AH", not the Yak.   The Yak is certainly fast, but with a speed of 358 on the deck it's not the fastest, and off the top of my head I can think of 6 or 7 un-perked fighters in AH which are faster.

J_A_B

[brady]

I think you might be giving to much credit to the ki 84, it is going to be a good plane no doubt, but not anymore uber than than the uber rides the dweabs live in in the MA, the Spit's la-7's and ect's will have good company with the ki 84 it's guns are good but they will be the same ones we have on the Tony and with about the same ammo load, they are good gun's but the ammo goes very fast and you nead to be fairly close to get good hit's with the 20mm Ho-5's and 12.7mm Ho-103's. Preformance wise it will be i suspect a bit slugish like the George is, it has the same engine as the George so I would not expect it to be over Uber, P51's will still Zoom and boom and Run away just like they always do.


  Adding the Nate and the oscar would be imo a bit waste of time, bad guns and weak airframes would not endear them to anyone and they would be hanger queans, why fly an oscar when you could take a Zero with 20mm Cannon's and actualy get a kill.

 The Best thing about the D4Y is that it spans the whole war and has a great preformance for it's type, picking a good mid or late war model would be nice to set it aganst the TBM or SBD we have in AH at present.

 Whats realy Scary is that the Ta 152 was actualy voted into the game, the Players picked it in a vote from several potential perk candates, including the tempest.

 as to why not get both ya I gues if your going to dream go all the way right:), realistical even the 4 i sugested most likely will Not be added anythime soon, I was trying to be realisticly opmastic:)

 Most all Late war japanese aircraft featured some armor protection, and genearly much more robast airframe construction than their early war predisasors, and some sort of self sealing fuel tank technolagy, the Jill had partial tank protection acording to my sorces.

 Well us Ct types would like to see a more fleased out plane set for obvious reasion's and the Ki 44 being an entierly new plane would add to the develpoment length and theirfore be more taxing to HTC to do than an early Ki 61. Also the Ki 44 is not a good a mount as the Ki 84 and they were in service during roughly the same time.

[J_A_B]

"J_A_B,

I understood that the B6N had protection.

Am I wrong?"

Karnak--

I believe Nakajima wanted to include substantial fuel tank protection but the IJN wouldn't allow it due to the reduction in range that would have resulted.  Whatever the B6N DID have was totally inadequate; same for the D4Y.  

Brady's sources may be better than mine, perhaps he can give us the details.

I previously hoped that the Jill would be added to AH since it'd match up better against the TBM, but since we got the Kate instead there's really not much point in ever adding it.  

J_A_B

[brady]

Ya it reduced the fuel load by 30% to add the totaly protected tank's so they dident go with this option on the Jill, My Maru Mechanic book shows No armor plate as such, nore do the seats apear to have armor plate, howeaver their are two men behind the piolet that the enemy would have to shoot through to get to him so in efect the piolet has "boddy" armor....The fuel tanks are in the wings, three each wing and they are protected in the since that they are segmented. The Plane was well made though it had a tough frame but no 'armor" realy, it also had of course a ventral gun, unlike the kate, though the 7.7mm is prety useless aganst the US 50cal's, Later models did have a dorsalt Type 2 MG gun though 13mm coppy of the 50cal browning. I think J_A_B hit the nail on the head in his comment about the Jill being aded, most likely we not see it anytime soon if ever. The Jill was a Lot better plane than the kate though, too bad we got hind tit again their.

 The Finial Vershion of the Susie was to have Crew and fuel protection , but for the most part all of them had only their preformance a strong airframe and their guns to protect them, later models having the 13mm Type 2 MG's in the dorsal position.

   All thing's considered the Grace is realy the best of the lot in MA terms, decent preformance( great for it's type) good bombload torpedo capable, decent defensive gun's ( well for it's type) and it had two Type 99 MK II cannons firing forward.

[J_A_B]

"however there are two men behind the pilot that the enemy would have to shoot through to get to him so in effect the pilot has "body armor"

ROFL that comment about made my day.  

Thanks for the info Brady.

J_A_B

[brady]

[eddiek]

Whats realy Scary is that the Ta 152 was actualy voted into the game, the Players picked it in a vote from several potential perk candates, including the tempest.

Hehehehe.......I printed out that entire thread and counted the votes for each plane.  Will have to relocate it, as I have moved twice since then.....but.........
When that vote came out, the Ta-152 was actually pretty far down the list of vote getters.  I'll drag that printout out of storage and check it, but I think it was like #10 or #11, and still got included as an addition in the next planeset update.
I was plenty ticked at the time, but I got over it........

[Shiva]

Originally posted by J_A_B
"but even when the FM was fairly good the Ki84 was an uberplane"

That would be because it was added with funds from a certain Japanese company, and the modeling was "optimistic" at best (actually it used post-war test data that was far superior to what the KI achieved in Japanese wartime service).

AH also doesn't model substandard parts, raw materials, assembly, wear, and maintenance; the planes always have performance stats equal to what a brand-new plane freshly rolled off the assembly line where the manufacturer knew that this plane would be put through the evaluation tests. You're not getting a plane that's been in the theatre for a year, has beer-can aluminum pop-riveted over bullet holes, replacement instruments from two different types of plane replacing the ones that were destroyed by bullets, needs a ring job, new spark plugs, and an oil change, a hydraulic system that has truck brake lines replacing the flap lines that got shot away last week,  is missing the aft fuselage fuel tank because it got chewed up and there are no replacements, has three guns with shot-out barrels, and is carrying ammunition that failed quality inspection but got shipped out anyway because the manufacturer bribed the inspector.

Be grateful you don't have to deal with real equipment problems.

[J_A_B]

"Be grateful you don't have to deal with real equipment problems."

Indeed--the N1K2 would be scary due to thingsa like engine fires  


Regarding the Ki-84, I wasn't even referring to the equipment problems it suffered from , but rather the fact that even the good ones didn't perform as well as they did in the post-war US tests, due to things like fuel quality.   The Japanese themselves only claimed around 390-410 MPH for it, as opposed to the 427 figure it reached in US testing.

J_A_B

[SELECTOR]

best thing about japanese planes is they burn good..

[SirLoin]

ki43 was the japanese most numerous fighter..it should be here.

[brady]

Thier are many planes from many countries that would suffer from these thing's, I understand that something along these lines will be modeled for the ToD though, should be interesting to see how it comes out.

[Bullethead]

I said:
"but even when the FM was fairly good the Ki84 was an uberplane"

J_A_B said:
That would be because it was added with funds from a certain Japanese company, and the modeling was "optimistic" at best (actually it used post-war test data that was far superior to what the KI achieved in Japanese wartime service).

Problem is, AH doesn't model "worst case" things.  The only really hard data on the Ki84 are from the "best case" post-war tests.  Everything else is too fuzzy:  either incomplete, guesstimated reductions of the post-war data, or anecdotal.  So going "best case" across the board is the only way to be objective.  Which means the Ki84 in AH would be up near the best of its various published stats.  Just like it was in AW.

As for the Yak-9U, its inferior to the LA7 in pretty much every signifigant way.  IMO the LA7 is the basis of "best non-perked fighter in AH", not the Yak.   The Yak is certainly fast, but with a speed of 358 on the deck it's not the fastest

Level speed is of no real importance.  What matters is dive speed, and the 9U can outdive every prop plane in the game because of its magic immunity from compression effects, and despite its light weight and no WEP.  Do some tests and see for yourself.  But bottom line, given a fight between 5-10k, no prop plane can extend away on the 9U from a co-E or even slightly +E start.

However, that really doesn't matter.  The point is, both the 9U and the lamer7 are both very good in too many ways.  The Ki84 would be another of this type, and IMHO even more of an uberdweeb ride than those we already have.  How can adding another such plane be a good thing for the MA?