Author Topic: AH2 and the Allied Air Offensive of 1944, USAAF by day, RAF by night  (Read 724 times)

Offline Karnak

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I was driving along doing my job earlier today thinking about AH as I sometimes do because I like AH.  My train of thought went from thinking about some of the great fights I've had in the Mossie, to irritation at the performance loss that the exhaust flare suppressors give it without any benefit in AH, to why some Mosquito FB.VIs had exhaust flare dampers, to AH2's first arena, the 8th Airforce offensive against Germany.

Now, the stuff I'm about to blather about is not intended to be a player suggestion for AH v2.00 as I think HTC has more than enough on their plate right now.  This is more a player suggestion for AH v2.01, v2.02 or v2.03.

The reason that the Mosquito FB.Mk VI in AH has an exhaust flare damper is that it was a night fighter.  I don't mean that all Mosquito Mk VIs were nightfighters, but the specific one we have was.  Here is the nose art for the specific Mosquito Mk VI we have in AH:

I don't know why it wasn't put on the Mosquito skin, maybe it will be added in AH2, but the important thing to note is that it has 17 kill markers.  A strike aircraft doesn't get 17 kills.  The Mosquito Mk VI modeled in AH was used as a night fighter and because of that it was usefull to have its exhause flares suppressed, even at the expense of 15mph or performance.

The Mosquito is not the only aircraft we have in AH with exhaust flare dampers, the Lancaster also has them.

All these things got me thinking of the night bombing campaign and how to impliment it.

The Allied Air Offensive of 1944 was a joint effort by the USAAF and the RAF.  AH2 will, by all reports, start with the USAAF's daylight efforts being the center.  That is natural choice given the current planeset.  However, we have almost enough aircraft for the night campaign as well.  There would have to be some changes to the gameplay at night as well of course.

1) Icons:

Because this will be an Axis vs. Allies environment, icons are not absolutely required.  True, they are required during the day to compensate for the reduced information given by a computer screen when compared with the human eye.  During the night however they are not needed and in fact give too much information.  At sunset, or slightly thereafter all icons should disappear.

2) Exhaust flares:

Exhaust flares should be added as a light source for all aircraft without damping equipment.  They flares should not be bright enough to be visible in daytime, but should be visible from about 500 yards or so at night time.

3) Radar:

3a) Ground Radar:

Ground radar should give positional data on all aircraft with updates every minute or two and identifying friend from foe.  Obviously this is mostly for the Germans.

3b) Air Intercept Radar:

Nightfighters should get realtime updates on activity in a 2.5 to 5 mile range in a 90 degree arc in front of them.  This should include friend or foe data to represent IFF (which was present and usually worked).  This data should be available only to the nightfighter in question, not shared nation wide like the ground radar.

3c) Monica and Window:

Lancasters should be equipped with both Monica and Window.  The effect of Monica should be to show any activity in the rear 45 degree arc to about 5 miles, but should also show the bomber using Monica to any German nightfigter in the rear 90 degrees of the Lanc and withing 25 miles.  Monica should be able to be turned on and off as it was in reality.
Window should have a limited number of "rounds" and should cause the German radar, both ground and airborne, to be flooded with contacts in a wide area around the bomber's location at the time of Window being employed.

4) Markers:

The British often employed a tactic where the target would be marked by parachute flares dropped by a Mosquito or Lancaster prior to the main force of bombers arrival.  This greatly increased accuracy as the bombers then had a set target to bomb.  Heavy flares should be added as a lightsource visible from miles away so that the Lancasters could use it as a target for bombing.

5) Searchlights:

Being caught in a searchlight often spelled doom for a British bomber.  AI controled searchlights should attempt to lock onto bombers.  If successful the bomber should be illuminated and an icon should appear.  Sufficiently violent and erratic manuvers on the part of the bomber should have a chance of shaking the searchlight.  AA fire should concentrate on bombers caught in the searchlight.

6) Needed aircraft:

Bf110G-4
Ju88C-4b
Mosquito B.IV or Mosquito B.IX or, prefferably, Mosquito B.XVI

An actuall purpose built Mosquito nightfighter would be nice, but the Mosquito Mk VI will work.

What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2003, 10:43:24 PM by Karnak »
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Offline Urchin

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AH2 and the Allied Air Offensive of 1944
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2003, 05:38:27 PM »
I think those are all good ideas and well thought out.  

Believe our 110-G2 would suffice for a 110-G4, the difference between the two was the G4 had radar and the schrage-musik guns and the G2 didn't.  

Perhaps they could be selectable as a loadout or something in the hangar, it might be less work than making a whole new plane.  

I'd really like for night to play a significant role in the TOD part of AH2.  If people don't like the night, they always have the option of going to the MA where night lasts for all of 10 minutes a day.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2003, 08:17:00 PM »
I had to break off before I was finished because I had to return to work.  Here are some further thoughts.

I recognize that many (most?) people don't like the night.  What I'd do is set the day/night cycle up so that there would be two night missions and five day missions each cycle.

The B-17Gs of the first day mission would take off at night and pass the returning Lancasters of the last night mission on their way out.  These first B-17Gs would be in the air on the way to the target when dawn broke. The next three B-17G missions would all take off and land during the day.  The fifth B-17G mission would take off during the day, bomb their target during the day and then land at night.  The first Lancaster mission would take off during the day and see the sun set while on their way to the target.  It would be night by the time they were over enemy territory and they would land at night.  The second Lancaster mission would take off at night, bomb their target at night, greet the dawn on their way home and land during daylight.  Escort fighters would take off as appropriate to escort or sweep ahead of the bomber stream.

This sequence would give greater weight to the more popular daytime missions, but also give some time to the British, German and Canadian players for whom the night war is part of their history.  It would also carry some of the feel of the round the clock bombing the Allies were inflicting on Germany.


Urchin is right about the Bf110G-2 in some ways, however it lacks the drag of the radar on the Bf110G-4.  Likewise the Mosquito Mk VI lacks the altitude performance of the NF Mossies.  I also think that the Mosquito B.XVI would be too much given the planes I suggested above.  Nothing the Germans have in that proposed planeset could realistically intercept it.  I'm trying to limit my suggested aircraft to airframes already present in AH, sorry He219 fans.  My preffered additions would be this list:

Bf110G-4
Ju88G-7b
Mosquito B.XVI
Mosquito NF.XIX with HO2 boost
Me262B-1a

My reasons for this list are:

Bf110G-4:  Drag from the radar and schrage musik.  Shrage musik is very significant and must be modeled.  Due to the similarity between the Bf110G-2 and Bf110G-4 I'd hope it would be an easy addition.
Ju88G-7b: I far prefer this Ju88 nightfighter to the vastly inferior Ju88C-6b, but it was too much for the Mosquito FB.VI to have to deal with.
Mosquito B.XVI:  This Mossie can carry a 4,000lb bomb or the marker flares, has high blown engines and was the main bomber version of the last year of the war.
Mosquito NF.XIX with HO2 boost: Adding this to the list allows the Ju88G-7b to also be added without being imbalancing.  The improved high altitude performace granted by the HO2 boost enables it to compete with the later German nightfighters.  The Mosquito NF.XIX is based on the Mosquito FB.VI airframe and uses the same Merlin 25 engines, simply adding the HO2 boost to them for high altitude performance.
Me262B-1a: This superb German nightfighter allows the Mosquito B.XVI to be added without imbalancing it in favor of the British.


If the He219 were added the balancing Mosquito would have to be upped to the Mosquito NF.XXX with high blown engines



Obviously my suggestions are a vast simplification of nightfighter radar systems and of the defensive bomber systems.  If HTC are planning an EAW style AI ground controler that the player can query that might change the whole thing.  Certainly it would change the ground radar system.  All of this was written with the current AH radar model in mind.


I don't know how to simulate the leapfrog measure and countermeasure game the RAF and Luftwaffe played without simply setting arbitrary rules to the effect of:  Monica will be on for this section of time and Window will work on German radar for this chunk of time, but not this one and then it will work again for this new time frame.  If you have ideas on how to make that actually work I'd like to hear them.
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Offline Karnak

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AH2 and the Allied Air Offensive of 1944
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2003, 12:12:23 AM »
Bf110G-4

Ju88G-6

Me262B-1a

Mosquito B.XVI

Mosquito NF.XIX
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Offline Rutilant

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Good!
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2003, 02:39:55 AM »
Sounds like a great idea. I don't like night in the MA, because it serves no purpose other than making it hard to see. With a new system like this it'd make it an enjoyable thing.











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Offline Squire

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AH2 and the Allied Air Offensive of 1944
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2003, 09:44:39 AM »
Night ops would be awesome, I hope they take your post to heart Karnak.

For info, many of "Black Rufes" victories were from "Day Ranger" sorties, essentially very long solo flights over occupied europe, looking for the unwary...Dorniers, Ju52s, sometimes fighters, whatever they could find to shoot down or strafe. Of course, the Mossie was also used extensively as a night fighter for intruder work and interception, as is amply covered in many books.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2003, 09:53:17 AM by Squire »
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Offline ramzey

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AH2 and the Allied Air Offensive of 1944
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2003, 10:36:50 AM »
I was thinking about night operation couple moths ago.

Lancasters from  attack deep in to german territory.
No formation flying /i mean no large groups/
3-4  routes, and bombers launched with 3-5min  delays each from 3 or for diferent bases.
Icons normal MA, radar short 7-15 mils from german base's, dot radar only , no bar radar. ACK max
2 or 3 possible targets to chose.
As interceptors bf110, 190a4 with rocket tubes /or a8/
frame 3-3,5 hour long. Axis start t+20
Admin call  targets info for axis when first bomber sucessfully drop his load.
Axis can chase allies bombers only to the channel
I have no ideas how to set axis forces. As patroling areas/sectors or like free hunters. Point is to not concentrate all german fighters in one area just near target. Wichone in RL was defended by flak fire only.

Against event like this:
-long frame
-not many "hardcore" players here
-allmost no action, except looking all the time around, not for directed for MA players
- score is counted as sucessful landing not numbers of kills, not many players will fly only to fullfil duty

but if u find som players i will be happy to take part of this

We can call this "Target for tonight" and launch friday 5-8 pm est or later

ramzey
« Last Edit: April 17, 2003, 10:39:18 AM by ramzey »

Offline BenDover

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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2003, 01:38:57 PM »
normal ma icons at night? ARE YOUR CRAZY?!?




Btw, if you're REALY interested in night warfare, check out this sim under developement, unfortunatly its main site with the pictures and info is down, the forums are up however, few dev pics in there.

Offline ramzey

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AH2 and the Allied Air Offensive of 1944
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2003, 02:09:02 PM »
im not crazy!!! little mistake icons D6:D :D

oh, i must saw it before long time ago. But, so nice title
anyway site is dead for me, links inside not work's

ramzey

Offline BenDover

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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2003, 02:56:11 PM »
yes the forums appear to be down atm, check tomorrow

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2003, 11:24:59 PM »
Punt for the day-night cycle thread.
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Offline Batz

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AH2 and the Allied Air Offensive of 1944
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2003, 12:58:44 AM »
you cant have night fighting be of any value if all one has to do is adjust my gama and make it "less like night".

Thats the problem with computer games.

To get a viable night fighting aspect theres to much needed for too little benefit. We would search lights for wild sau etc.......

Even il2 where all this is modelled folks just dont enjoy it.

You need radar and we all know we wont have the radar system revamped. HT has said he has no interest in a no icon setting even for events.

While its a neat subject to think about it wont transfer over very well into good gameplay.

Heres an on again off again game thats been in the planning for some time.

http://www.nightbomber.com/

The sits changes alot and like they are redoing it again.

In computer games .....night time sux........

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2003, 01:51:22 AM »
Adjusting gamma won't do any good if the server adjusts visual con range and icon range to reflect night. That is, as far as a2a is concerned. Even for ground targets, there might be a way to simulate reduced visability that negates gamma correction.

Offline clouds

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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2003, 06:27:26 AM »
Karnak, if your Ju88-G6 plane was buildt by your own hands then......you are a pretty good plastic modeller, congrats ;)

Take a look at the "shrage musik" cannons just behind the cockpit, they must be 30mm cannons.

Offline Sakai

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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2003, 08:54:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
I recognize that many (most?) people don't like the night.  What I'd do is set the day/night cycle up so that there would be two night missions and five day missions each cycle.


I love this idea.

Sakai
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