Author Topic: P-38 Driving questions...  (Read 3487 times)

Offline Z0mBe

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P-38 Driving questions...
« on: April 16, 2003, 04:20:35 PM »
38 Drivers:

I have been flying the p-51's lately because I can't seem to win in the p38.  I know to bnz the spits and niks and that I can outtrun them at all alttitudes.  I know I can outturn and usually outrun the 190s.  I know I can outrun and bnz the 109e/f and the g6.  

What gets me is the yak-9u's, 109g2/g10, the la-5/7s, p51's and f4u's.

Everyone tells me to use flaps at xxx speed and yo-yo or whatever, but these planes still (don't laugh at me AKAK :)) often outturn me or get the advantage on the merge.  It seems if I try to immel, they shoot me on the way up before I get to the top of the first immelman.  Obviously, I cant seem to outturn them after the merge either.

I know the p38 is one of the rare planes that can outturn what it can't outrun, but I don't know how to do it.  

If anyone has any tips on what to do versus my "trouble" enemies, that would be great.  Merge tactics and flap usage would ESPECIALLY be appreciated :).

By the way, I always take the light gun load and no more than %50 internal fuel.

Thank you again from a former 38 devotee who wants to get back in the saddle again.

<>

Z0mBe

Offline WldThing

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P-38 Driving questions...
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2003, 04:42:43 PM »
Cutting throttle on the merge helps you get around alot faster, along with the flaps.  

My merge usually consists of diving under the nose of the enemy, and never going up infront of him.  Most of the pilots i duel tend to go straight up infront of me, before we even made the merge.  I cut throttle and wait for them to cross my guns.  Pulling up thru a blackout is not a bad thing.  I am mostly blackedout thru the full merge.  GL!

Im not a P-38 pilot but ACM in one plane is the same as in the next.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2003, 04:45:45 PM by WldThing »

Offline Z0mBe

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P-38 Driving questions...
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2003, 04:56:48 PM »
if you pass below them, won't the AH gunnery/damage model allow you to be hit in the top-front quarter?



Z0mBe

Offline WldThing

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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2003, 05:14:00 PM »
Not if you go down enough.  Diving under them is a good tactic if they also try to HO you, so its a win win situation.

I start diving at around 3 - 3.4k.  Once you get better and better you will find what works best for you.  So time is a very important factor :)

=S=

Offline Ack-Ack

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P-38 Driving questions...
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2003, 07:29:38 PM »
Of all those trouble planes you listed, the P-38L can out turn each of them.

From what you described, I'm willing to bet that you are using Combat Trim in the P-38L and that's a major mistake.  Combat Trim has such a small window where it's useful in the P-38L that you're better off not using it at all.  And the P-38L only really needs trim adjustments to the elevator and you shouldn't have to adjust aileron/rudder trims.  The only time I adjust aileron/rudder trim is to compensate for battle damage to my wings, like when I have half of one missing.  I don't ever recall of having to adjust rudder trims in the P-38L.  So in short, Combat Trim in the P-38 won't let you push the envelope.

Another important thing is throttle management.  In AW, we didn't really have to worry about that since we could keep it 100% with WEP on without any adverse effects.  In here, it's much more important and I think throttle control is just as important as flaps management in the P-38L.  

There isn't just one 'trick' that will let you defeat certain planes, IMO, it takes a little more than that but I've always told any ex-AWer P-38 driver that the same tactics you used in AW can be used here with success (not 100% success but the majority of the time).  

Here's a small library of films I made in the P-38L, in various situations and a lot of them are against the planes you are having troubles with.  There's a couple of films where I duel a Yak to show that the P-38 can out perform a Yak in a fight.

P-38 films

Here's some more films in the P-38 but these were made by Leviathn and are fantastic training films as they give an excellent idea on how to use flaps and show how well the P-38 can hang on its props in the vertical.

Leviathn's P-38 films

Now that I figured out the problem with my in-flight film recorder and have fixed it, I'll be making more P-38 films and post them here.  In the meantime, here's my most recent film.  It's a duel against BBBB flying a Spitfire Mk XIV against my P-38L.

Spitfire Mk XIV vs. P-38L



Ack-Ack
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« Last Edit: April 16, 2003, 09:47:18 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Kweassa

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P-38 Driving questions...
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2003, 09:51:01 PM »
Another important factor when fighting the P-38L, is that a lot of people don't have a clear grasp of exactly just what it can do.

 Some people mention the C.205, others mention the La-5FN, but personally I think the single most under-estimated fighter in AH is the P-38L. The P-38L is a late-war variant that solved many of the problems with its previous versions, and has superior performance powerful enough to satisfy MA standards.

 ....
 
 typically in verticals, the P-38L possesses both the out-zooming and and out-climbing characteristics.

 "Out-zooming" is a unique trait that belongs almost exclusively to the US fighters, coming from the fact that they are heavy. Common physics suggest that heavy objects, as long as there is enough power, moves faster than light objects, and it is also more difficult to stop a heavy object than a light one. Thus, as long as a plane holds enough speed in the initial stages, a heavier plane will zoom up faster than a lighter one.

 I'm sure that everyone has the experience of chasing a P-51 or a P-47, being pretty sure that with current E-states you'll be able to follow him throughout his zoom climb. Then suddenly, as the heavy US plane starts going vertical, you note in dismay that for some reason it is difficult to catch it in a vertical... and by the time you almost catch up to him, he's coming down on you with those 4~8 .50 machine gun blazing head-on.

 This is because, while light planes with powerful engines such as the Bf109s can zoom up in great distances, the speed of the zoom isn't particularly fast. Thus, though in absolute height a plane like the Bf109 may out-zoom a US fighter, often the US fighter(if it had enough speed) can zoom up very fast, finish the reversal and come thundering down when the Bf109 is still on its way up. When timed right, it offers a very deadly Head-On shot opportunity for the US fighter - in a vertical situation, the upper plane coming down can aim a lot more accurately than the lower plane. The upper plane in this case, also has a superior weapon with high rate of fire and accuracy, and also has better hitting power due to the kinetic energy(Pyro says AH models kinetic energy differences in fired rounds).

 On the other hand, "out-climbing" is a characteristic more familiar with the lighter planes. The Bf109 can go vertical, and go a great distance in this state thanks to its light weight and powerful engine. In equal E-states, if a US plane cannot time his 'out-zooming' right, the Bf109 will stick behind its tail and just not let it go in a vertical. Often a 109G-10 can turn the tables against a P-51D or a P-47D that comes down in a typical BnZ attack. Just lure the enemy plane down in a shallow dive, and once the Bf109 hits 400~450mph speed, if the US plane zooms up after a failed attack, the 109 can, and will follow it in a zoom climb despite 50~80mph speed difference. Also, against more maneuverable and nimble fighters, the Bf109 can lure it into a sustained climb rate competition, which of course the winner is only obvious.

 Now, the P-38L has BOTH of those characteristics(!). It has its natural advantages of being a heavy US fighter. It also climbs exceptionally well for a US plane.

 Of course, it cannot the out-climb the Bf109, but in a pure vertical situation, that problem is neutralized due to the fact that it has no torque, and continue the zoom up to drastically low speed and still make a quick and safe reversal.

 In AH, there is a high possibility of falling into a plain or inverted flat spin if a vertical zoom is carried on for too long. Thus, in every plane there is a 'safety limit' which the reversal sequence has to be started. or face the dangers of falling into a difficult stall. Of course, there's a difference between expert pilots and rookies, but generally, the reversal has to be started around 100mph for most of the planes. In the case of the P-38L, this 'safety speed' may go down to as low as 30~50mph(!!). Go straight up, and just pop flaps out and it will nose down clean, without leaning all over the place(and making it prone to falling into a bad stall) due to torque.

 ....

 The combination of those three factors - out-zooming, out-climbing, and no-torque - gives the P-38L a very rare characteristic advantage which no other fighter in AH holds. It turns the P-38L into perhaps the most dreaded vertical fighter in AH.

 Is that all for the P-38L? Of course not.

 Recent tests(courtesy of Mister Fork) reveal that the P-38L is in 11th place at low altitudes, and 5th place(!) at high altitudes in acceleration.

 Also, with the exception of a few USN fighters, it boasts a superior turning performance among US planes. No Luftwaffe plane out-turns the P-38L except the Bf109E-4 and the F-4.

 ...

 So, when all of the traits we see are put together into one, the P-38L, is a plane like this:

1) Excellent in verticals
2) Good sustained climb
3) Average/Good turn performance
4) Excellent acceleration
5) Good speed at high alt(about 416mph @ 25,000ft)
6) Good speed at low alt(about 344mph @ deck)
7) Excellent firepower(.50x4, HispMkII 20mmx1, centerline armament)
8) Excellent dive
9) Average/Good roll performance at 300~400mph
10) Excellent roll performance at 400+mph
11) Very Poor pitch response at 400+mph
12) Excellent multi-purpose plane
13) Good range


 Compare the Bf109G-10 in same categories..

1) Excellent in verticals
2) Excellent sustained climb
3) Poor/Average turn performance
4) Excellent acceleration
5) Excellent speed at high alt(about 452mph @ 22,000ft)
6) Excellent speed at low alt(366mph @ deck)
7) Poor firepower(MK108 has problems with efficiency as A2A weapon)
8) Average dive
9) Average roll performance at 300~400mph
10) Very Poor roll performance at 400+mph
11) Very Poor pitch response at 400+mph
12) Very Poor multi-purpose plane
13) Very Poor range


...

 Now, compare the Fw190D-9 also..

1) Good/Excellent in verticals
2) Average sustained climb
3) Very Poor turn performance
4) Average acceleration
5) Excellent speed at high alt(about 427mph @ 17,500ft)
6) Excellent speed at low alt(about 375mph @ deck)
7) Good firepower
8) Excellent dive
9) Excellent roll performance at 300~400mph
10) Good roll performance at 400+mph
11) Average/Good pitch response at 400+mph
12) Very Poor multi-purpose plane
13) Poor/Average range

 ....

 How about the P-51D?

1) Good/Excellent in verticals
2) Average sustained climb
3) Poor turn performance
4) Average acceleration
5) Excellent speed at high alt(about 437mph @ 24,500ft)
6) Excellent speed at low alt(about 367mph @ deck)
7) Good/Excellent firepower
8) Excellent dive
9) Good roll performance at 300~400mph
10) Good roll performance at 400+mph
11) Excellent pitch response at 400+mph
12) Excellent multi-purpose plane
13) Excellent range


 and the La-7?

1) Excellent in verticals(limited to low altitudes)
2) Excellent in sustained climb(limited to low altitudes)
3) Average turn performance
4) Excellent acceleration
5) Good speed at high alt(about 410mph @ 20,000ft)
6) Excellent speed at low alt(about 380mph @ deck)
7) Good firepower
8) Average dive
9) Average roll performance at 300~400mph
10) Average roll performance at 400+mph
11) Poor/Average pitch response at 400+mph
12) Poor multi-purpose plane
13) Good range(La-7 range seems to have some problems)


 ...

 This crude, but simple comparison shows that as a balanced fighter, the P-38L is one of the best planes in AH.

 The reason that people often do not realize this fact is, many rookies come in this plane with jabo purposes and either auger to the ground, or get chased by zillion enemy planes and drop out of the sky like flies. There aren't many people who solely specialize in the P-38L, and most of the times it is a secondary choice as a high-risk jabo plane. Thus, not many are familiar with its potentials. It is usually an easy kill.

 Another reason is its lack of low-alt speed. 344mph at deck is not a slow speed, but considering the nature of the MA, once it chased around at low altitudes, it is not going to escape planes like the La-7. However, this is a problem with many other planes also.

 Perhaps the most important reason is its bad reputation coming from the comments of Luftwaffe officers. Despite the P-38s in Europe were earlier variants, many people still do not realize that there is a very clear difference in performance levels between the "L" model and its predecessors such as "H", "F" or "G" models. The difference between the "L" and its earlier brothers, is like the difference between the LaGG-3 and the La-5FN.

 Whatever reason there may be, the P-38L is underlooked. Advantages in maximum speed, is only worth something when you are running. As long as one chooses to fight, the P-38L is a very powerful enemy.

Offline cobia38

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P-38 Driving questions...
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2003, 12:19:54 AM »
Well put KWEASSA   :)


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Offline Z0mBe

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P-38 Driving questions...
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2003, 11:10:31 AM »
38 Tipsters:

What can I say guys but...WOW!

Thank you all so much!  I will climb back into the P38L.

AKAK, you are right about the combat trim...I will turn it off.

Kweassa...thank you for the direct comparisons!  I never thought you would post so much information!

WildThing...I will try to work on the merge stuff you mentioned.  A dive that extreme makes a lot of sense.  It was my basic tactic in AW in RR and FR versus all enemies.  It worked like a charm there and just needs a little tweaking here I now realize.

<> and thank you all,

Z0mBe

Offline Elysian

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P-38 Driving questions...
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2003, 01:47:39 PM »
If ya ever need a practice dueling partner let me know Zombe, I can play the "bad guy" in the g10 or 190.  Wldthings suggestion of laying off throttle on the merge is good advice too.

Offline WldThing

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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2003, 02:09:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elysian
If ya ever need a practice dueling partner let me know Zombe, I can play the "bad guy" in the g10 or 190.  Wldthings suggestion of laying off throttle on the merge is good advice too.


Same here.. if ya ever want to schedule a time, you can film the fights, My email is in the Sig.

Offline wetrat

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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2003, 06:13:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elysian
If ya ever need a practice dueling partner let me know Zombe, I can play the "bad guy" in the g10 or 190.  Wldthings suggestion of laying off throttle on the merge is good advice too.
And I'll play the "good guy" beating up the cherry picking wuss (ely) :D
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Offline guttboy

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P-38 Driving questions...
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2003, 11:30:24 PM »
Kweassa,
 
Ive been out of the AH cockpit for roughly 2 months and now finally back in the states!  GREAT REPLY ON THIS EMAIL!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG I learned alot!!!!

Thanks!

:D

Offline Slash27

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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2003, 04:18:46 AM »
Nice films AKAK. 10 whole seconds before the private ch. whine:D



Thanks for all the info AKAK and Kweassa.

Offline akak

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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2003, 06:53:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
Nice films AKAK. 10 whole seconds before the private ch. whine:D


 


10 seconds?  New record


Ack-Ack

Offline Elysian

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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2003, 08:19:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wetrat
And I'll play the "good guy" beating up the cherry picking wuss (ely) :D


Lol wetrat, wtf?

Admit it, you envy my gondolas.