Author Topic: Why did Christ Die?  (Read 2047 times)

Offline Saintaw

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Why did Christ Die?
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2003, 10:46:22 AM »
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Infidels of every description have tried to discredit them.


Hey, I that rings a bell... Dowding, can I borrow your avatar for a couple minutes?
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline Sabre

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Why did Christ Die?
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2003, 11:01:35 AM »
“What are God’s gifts?”  A reasonable question, Hawk.  I’ve already named two: Jesus Christ and human free agency (i.e. the right to choose our own actions).  Another is life itself, a physical body and the opportunity to experience life.  Then there’s Creation; the sum total of all there is.  Finally, there is the gift of our basic rights as humans.  I offer this particularly important phrase in support: “…that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among them of which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”  Note that the Founding Fathers of the USA didn’t believe these rights came from government, but rather that they were divine in nature.  Government, they believed, exists to protect those rights, not to create or bestow them.

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Offline najdorf

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« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2003, 12:32:11 PM »
If god is all knowing and knows what you are going to do, how can you "choose" to do something other than what he knows you are going to do?

Further, if God is all-powerful, then he could make us and the world he put us in any way he wanted.  If he also knows the result beforehand, how can I be blamed for something he made me do?

Here's a teaser:  If god is all-powerful, can he make a rock that is so large he can't lift it?

Also, is something right because god says it's right or because god knows it's right.  If it's only right because god says it's right, then god is arbitrary and hardly a moral entity.  If it's right because he knows it's right, god is not necessary for right and therefore superfluous.

Also Sabre, I hate to burst your founding father's buble, but most wer Deists.  Payne and Jefferson were most likely atheists.  Revolutionary war was fought for money, not religious freedom.  But it's hard to stir up the masses when you tell them you want them to fight and die because you think you can make more money without Brittish control on your trade.  Much easier to make it into some kind of holy war.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2003, 12:35:41 PM by najdorf »

Offline hawk220

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Why did Christ Die?
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2003, 12:50:42 PM »
is something right because god says it's right or because god knows it's right. If it's only right because god says it's right, then god is arbitrary and hardly a moral entity. If it's right because he knows it's right, god is not necessary for right and therefore superfluous.



hmmmm interesting

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2003, 04:33:58 PM »
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If god is all knowing and knows what you are going to do, how can you "choose" to do something other than what he knows you are going to do?


The fact that He knows your heart in no way changes that fact that it was your choice.  He simply allows you to make that choice, even though He knows what it will be.  The very fact that He could make us do his bidding, but doesn’t is the essence of free agency.  That power, to know our hearts, is what allows Him to sit in judgment against us.

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Further, if God is all-powerful, then he could make us and the world he put us in any way he wanted. If he also knows the result beforehand, how can I be blamed for something he made me do?


Such an argument as yours could be used to justify any crime.  “God let me do it, so how can I be blamed.”  Such an argument won’t work in a court of law, and won’t work at the seat of judgment, either.

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Here's a teaser: If god is all-powerful, can he make a rock that is so large he can't lift it?


As you choose to get all extestential on us, I’ll respond in kind.  I believe He could, but my simple, flawed human mind is probably unable to comprehend how:).

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Also, is something right because god says it's right or because god knows it's right. If it's only right because god says it's right, then god is arbitrary and hardly a moral entity. If it's right because he knows it's right, god is not necessary for right and therefore superfluous.


Hardly arbitrary.  Rather, He is wise and consistent.  He knows that for people to get along…no, for us to flourish and reach our full potential, there has to be a set of rules.  These rules (codified in the Ten Commandments) recognize human nature, and are designed to help us make decisions that benefit our fellow man.  

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Also Sabre, I hate to burst your founding father's buble, but most wer Deists. Payne and Jefferson were most likely atheists. Revolutionary war was fought for money, not religious freedom. But it's hard to stir up the masses when you tell them you want them to fight and die because you think you can make more money without Brittish control on your trade. Much easier to make it into some kind of holy war.


Nice try, but you ignore certain aspects of history here, and in so doing cheapen what that struggle was all about.  First, the Revolutionary War was not fought over money.  It was fought for freedom.  Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and yes, even (but not solely or even primarily) economic freedom.  Many people have come to the United States to escape poverty, but I’d wager what they and most others really wanted was freedom.  The Declaration of Independence was written to sum up all the reasons why these former British colonies could no longer suffer the burden of an Empire that chose to treat them as second-class citizens.  That included political oppression, religious oppression, as well as financial oppression.

Sabre
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Offline najdorf

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« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2003, 05:16:47 PM »
Sabre,  


"The fact that He knows your heart in no way changes that fact that it was your choice. He simply allows you to make that choice, even though He knows what it will be. The very fact that He could make us do his bidding, but doesn’t is the essence of free agency. That power, to know our hearts, is what allows Him to sit in judgment against us."

I think you are missing the point.  The question points out the logical inconsistency and the mutual exclusivity of the two.  Ie, you cannot have both omniscience and freedom of choice.  All your answer does is make a simplistic statement of belief.  It does not answer the question, "How is this possible?"  If he knows, not has a real good hunch, but knows what your choice will be, how can you say that you have the power to choose otherwise?

"Such an argument as yours could be used to justify any crime. “God let me do it, so how can I be blamed.” Such an argument won’t work in a court of law, and won’t work at the seat of judgment, either."

My argument is not some attempt to use Christianity in some attempt a total hedonism.  I am not trying to justify crime.  I am merely pointing out that it is inconsistent to argue that an entity that is omnipotent and omniscient could hold an entity that it produces responsible for its actions.  This being could make you anyway it wanted, and put you in any enviroment it wanted and further knows exactly what your reaction to the enviroment will be long before he ever makes you.  It's all kind of pointless, don't you think?

"As you choose to get all extestential on us, I’ll respond in kind. I believe He could, but my simple, flawed human mind is probably unable to comprehend how."

My question is not existential in nature.  Rather it is based in pure logic, boolean circles if you will.  If you want existentialist crap, try Sarte.  And if you believe he could, what logical argument do you propose to show it is possible.  If you cannot, you simply choose to believe something even though it is clearly irrational because doing so jives with one of your centrally held beliefs.

"Hardly arbitrary. Rather, He is wise and consistent. He knows that for people to get along…no, for us to flourish and reach our full potential, there has to be a set of rules. These rules (codified in the Ten Commandments) recognize human nature, and are designed to help us make decisions that benefit our fellow man."

Doing something simply because you can is basically the definition of arbitrary behavior.  Also, non-christian cultures have come up with basically the same mores on their own with no help from Moses.  See civil law of ancient Rome.  So once again, you have evaded the real question.  In regard to ethics, is god merely arbitrary or unnecessary?

"Nice try, but you ignore certain aspects of history here, and in so doing cheapen what that struggle was all about. First, the Revolutionary War was not fought over money. It was fought for freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and yes, even (but not solely or even primarily) economic freedom. Many people have come to the United States to escape poverty, but I’d wager what they and most others really wanted was freedom. The Declaration of Independence was written to sum up all the reasons why these former British colonies could no longer suffer the burden of an Empire that chose to treat them as second-class citizens. That included political oppression, religious oppression, as well as financial oppression."

To get an accurate assessment of the why in history, you have to dig a little deeper than just the surface.  Looking only at what the results are and simply stating an opinion that they were primary is not acceptable.  Look at who started the war and what they had to gain.  The war was primarily one for the nothern trading and manufacturing colonies.  You will notice that Brittish efforts in the war sought to split the colonies along these lines.  The southern colonies were reluctant to join.  This was the primary reason Washington was put in charge, he was a Virginian and a southerner.  The agricultural based south did not gain much from independence from England.  As a matter of fact, it hurt them and caused the Civil War, which was also fought over money.  Specifically, the tarriffs invoked by a Congress that was dominated by Northern industrial economies hurt the south causing that eventual split.  And, if you will read some of the period writings by Jefferson, he forsaw the problem and predicted the civil war.

I think the central question you have to ask is, do I believe this because it makes sense, or do I believe it because it makes me feel better.  I choose logic.

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2003, 08:14:40 PM »
I sense contempt in your response.  If that is due to the impression that my own comments were meant to ridicule you, such was not my intent.  Rather than address each of your counter points, I'll simply concede that we agree to disagree.  It will save me a lot of typing.  In the end, it does in deed come down to faith, and an acknowledgement that we don't have all the answers, and some of the answer we have don't always make sense, due to our own lack of perfect knowledge.  To quote a certain vulcan, "Logic is not the end of wisdom; it is the beginning."  

As for the American War of Independance, that discussion really deserves a thread of it's own.  However, all the various reasons for it can still be summed up as a quest for Freedom, which according to the words written by the Founding Fathers is a divine gift.  If you look at how most of the people who signed the Declaration ended up, it's rather hard to imagine that it was mere financial greed that drove them.  They all new the great risks they took by signing it, and most paid a heavy price to do so.

One final point before I leave this discussion.  You mentioned that God creating us then putting us in a situation with a foregone conclusion would be kind of pointless.  It would be, if there were no reason for us to live, other than to die.  I can look at my four children and know (or at least be pretty sure) of some of the mistakes they'll make.  I can tell them those mistakes ahead of time, even stop them from making them.  They won't learn anything that way.  We're here to learn and grow.  A life with no higher purpose, with nothing to work for and hope for when it is done...such a life would indeed be pointless.

Respectfully,
Sabre
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Offline najdorf

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Why did Christ Die?
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2003, 09:57:36 PM »
Sabre,

Certainly nothing personal is meant in any of my comments, I simply like to argue.  You are entitled to your opinion and I do not want to ridicule you for it.  I mean no offense, but love discussion.

It is indeed a question of faith vs. knowledge.  You have your faith and I would not rob you of it.  I simply chose a different path.


Offline NUKE

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« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2003, 10:32:00 PM »
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I think you are missing the point. The question points out the logical inconsistency and the mutual exclusivity of the two. Ie, you cannot have both omniscience and freedom of choice


You don't make sense

A being could have total knowledge  , yet allow a lesser being to make it's own choices,  knowing ( pre-determining even) which choices are right and which choices are wrong.

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2003, 11:06:36 PM »
No, omniscient implies knowing what those choices will be before they are made, not just once the choices are made if they are wrong or right.

In other words every "decision" you make would have to have been already decided, otherwise it could not be known.  You're suddenly back to a greek tragedy.

Am I going to stop and get gas tomorrow?  Only God knows?  If he knows, then I don't really have a choice.  It is already decided.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2003, 11:07:09 PM »
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Originally posted by Eagler
think he's doing his seasonal witnessin ...

the one about throwing pearls to swine comes to mind ...


How true

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2003, 11:18:13 PM »
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Originally posted by Fatty
No, omniscient implies knowing what those choices will be before they are made, not just once the choices are made if they are wrong or right.

In other words every "decision" you make would have to have been already decided, otherwise it could not be known.  You're suddenly back to a greek tragedy.

Am I going to stop and get gas tomorrow?  Only God knows?  If he knows, then I don't really have a choice.  It is already decided.


Knowing the choices before they are made isn't the same as forcing someone to make a choice.
 

If I were all knowing and told you the speed limit was 55 and that going faster than 55 wrong, yet I knew that you ( by your choice, not being forced) were going to break the speed limit, I have not decided for you, I just know what you are going to decide.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2003, 11:24:20 PM by NUKE »

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2003, 11:21:36 PM »
If you know and created everything that led to the circumstances my decision was based on, you most certainly did.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2003, 11:26:36 PM »
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Originally posted by Fatty
If you know and created everything that led to the circumstances my decision was based on, you most certainly did.


What if I created you and gave you a choice and free will regardless of circumstances presented to you?

By definition, if you make a decision, then you acted on your free will
« Last Edit: May 07, 2003, 11:29:08 PM by NUKE »

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2003, 11:27:47 PM »
If it was in such a controlled environment that even under "free will" all choices were predetermined, I would laugh at you (but of course you would have known that).

If you relinquished enough control in this petri dish of yours to allow unknown factors to play (like free will), you would no longer be omniscient.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2003, 11:32:28 PM by Fatty »