Museum or Oil Ministry - This is a Test -

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Toad
But who would expect a "seamless" changeover?

No one one should expect a "seamless" changeover.  There of course would have been a period of friction.

 However, I think the reason that this incident is seen as a failure, isn't because the US weren't  able to provide police services for the entirety of the city of Baghdad and it's population, but because they didn't police these two incredibly important and valuble buildings and their contents, even after the Pentagon was informed of their importance and content.

The US was able to police the Ministrys of Infomation and Oil buildings.  Buildings whose documents are of somewhat transient worth.

If I recall correctly the area were the museme and libreary were located was in US military control well before the looting started.

[Martlet]

Originally posted by Thrawn
No one one should expect a "seamless" changeover.  There of course would have been a period of friction.

 However, I think the reason that this incident is seen as a failure, isn't because the US weren't  able to provide police services for the entirety of the city of Baghdad and it's population, but because they didn't police these two incredibly important and valuble buildings and their contents, even after the Pentagon was informed of their importance and content.

The US was able to police the Ministrys of Infomation and Oil buildings.  Buildings whose documents are of somewhat dubious and transient worth.

Yes.   It is the US's fault that some Iraqi's are thieves.  Those Iraqi's are not responsible at all.

[midnight Target]

It is not the US's fault the museum was looted, however I regret our decision or lack of a decision to not provide security.

Reports I have seen indicate that the museum was hit by professionals. Replica artifacts were left alone, while originals were stolen. The will most likely attempt to fence them. The items that are lost will most likely resurface.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Martlet
Yes.   It is the US's fault that some Iraqi's are thieves.  Those Iraqi's are not responsible at all.

No, it's the US's fault that they didn't police those theives.  If crime goes up in a city because a mayor cuts police staff who's responsible?

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by midnight Target
It is not the US's fault the museum was looted

Would the museum have been looted if the US didn't take military control of Baghdad?

A better argument, and one that is more consistant with the arguement that the US and GB invade Iraq to free them, would be that the looting of the museum and the library is worth the freedom of the Iraqis.

Of course, that would be a decision the US and GB made without the consultation of the Iraqi people, just like the war itself.  Perhaps the Iraqis will decide that it was worth it, I'm sure time will tell us very soon.

The tragedy is that there is no possible way for the US to provide restitution, and it could have been so easily prevented.

[Martlet]

Originally posted by Thrawn
No, it's the US's fault that they didn't police those theives.  If crime goes up in a city because a mayor cuts police staff who's responsible?

So if the police staff is cut in my city, I can go rob the bank, since it isn't my fault?

[midnight Target]

I'm thinking it must be France's fault! Or maybe Canada's fault! If only we had more troops for our coalition!!

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Martlet
So if the police staff is cut in my city, I can go rob the bank, since it isn't my fault?

Nah, you aren't a criminal.  


Say you have 50 cops and 50 criminals.

Each criminal tries to commit one crime.

Each cop stops one crime.

Net effect: 0 criminal acts.


The mayor lays off 25 cops.

Net effect: 25 criminal acts are succesfully commited.

The mayor is responsible for the increase in succesfully commited criminal acts.



There are 10 looters in Baghdad trying to loot.

There are 10 cops in Baghdad stopping them.

Net effect: 0 looting.

US "lays off" all the cops.

US doesn't replace place the cops.

You now have 10 looters successfully looting.

[Dnil]

ahh ok got ya, so there are bad people in the world that must be policed.

[Nash]

Well said Montezuma... it *is* a ludicrous comparison. And well said Dinger; Syzygyone makes it sound like in order to have electricity, you have to sacrifice a museum (filled with "stuff"). Looking ahead 100 years from now, I wonder which would be valued more... folders full of land surveys and old contracts relating to a forgotten energy source, or artifacts from the beginnings of civilization (oops, I mean "old stuff").

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Dnil
ahh ok got ya, so there are bad people in the world that must be policed.

Exactly.  

If your city had a rise in crime, and it city goverment said, "Wel,l it's not our fault, it's the criminal's.", they would be out of a job pretty quick.  Because their arugment leaves out the fact that it's thier job to protect the public and to try and stop the criminals.

[Wlfgng]

You now have 10 looters successfully looting.

but it is no way the theives fault?  what ?

doesn't hold water Thrawn.

[ET]

Strange that looters had keys to safes. I saw shots on TV of looting of palaces and office buildings and hospitals but none of Museum looters in action. I must have missed it or maybe TV reporters missed it. Some of the pieces had to be fairly heavy. Did the looters bring heavy equipment. Makes me wonder if anything was left there before we got there.

[Dnil]

haha guess I was being waaay to vague for you thrawn  was more of a protecting the world kinda comment.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by Dowding
And the hospitals, water treatment plants and other infrastructure?

May be that if we'd had some help from some of the self-interested profiteering UN members we may have had the resources to protect everything. As it is, there is some disruption, but everything will soon be fine.

Just saw you beat me to the punch MT