Museum or Oil Ministry - This is a Test -

[Syzygyone]

Hmmm, let's see, now,

1) What is more important for getting Iraq back to the Iraqi people:

a) a museum filled with thousands of years old stuff, albeit culturally important stuff
or
b) infrastructure and systems necessary to get power, water and food to the people.


2) What is more important for the future of a free Iraq:

a) museum filled with thousands of years old stuff, albeit very important stuff
or
b) protection of the only industry that country has that can bring it enough money to pull it's oppressed masses out of the 15th century life style most of them lived in.

While regrettable, the loss of these artifacts will not hamper the redevelopment of Iraq.  On the other hand, the loss of their oil industry, which can provide heretofore unheard of public wealth, would have spelled the death knell for that whole civilization.  Now, the billions and billions Saddam spent on his gold plated toilets, can be used to provide schools, hospitals, etc. etc.

The right choice was made for the future of Iraq.  It's now up to them to get a social structure back in place and get those artifacts back.  

Oh wait...I know.... they can use some of those torture chambers in hospitals and schools to grill the information out of suspected museum robbers!

[Dowding]

Oil Ministry or Hospital... oil ministry or hospital...

Oil ministry or water treatment plant... oil ministry or power station...

[OIO]

You never played Command and Conquer dowding?


You cant build no friggin hospitals, barracks, power plants, etc if you do not build the goddarned refinery first!

The spice must flow!


Whoa... just read this and got a chill up my spine. C&C as an analogy for real life stuff.. lol!

[Dowding]

I always used to play as NOD.

[muckmaw]

Look how the artifacts and priceless works of art were stolen from France and other nations conquered by the Third Reich.

I would venture to guess their infrastructure was obliterated, when compared to the damage done to Iraq.

Yet, France, and Germany were able to retain their culture, and rise from the ashes. It's sad when a people has it's heritage ransacked, but it's sadder still when they have to worry about whether or not they will be alive next week because of their "Leader".

It's a tragedy, but sparing the one resource Iraq has to provide income for it's people is more important.

You can't eat a sculpture.

[Dowding]

And the hospitals, water treatment plants and other infrastructure?

[Dinger]

It's a loss for the US, no matter what position you hold on the war.
First, "Oil Ministry" has nothing that isn't replaceable.  The oil is still in the ground.  The infrastructure is still out in the fields.  Without the oil ministry, you can still pump oil while paying Halliburton to redo all those surveys lost.

Second, if you put a pricetag on everything that would be lost if the oil ministry were looted and burned and compared that to how much was lost when the museum was looted and the library looted and burned, you'd find that the latter "collections of old stuff" were worth _billions_ more than the oil ministry.

Third, it's a false dichotomy.  The military wasn't faced witht he choice "Oil Ministry or Museum and Library".  They could have committed forces to both.  The simple fact is that the Museum and Library weren't prioritized.  It wasn't "Gee, we'd have liked to protect these cultural artefacts, but we didn't have the resources." It was "Nobody thought about listening to the art historians and archaeologists who came to the Pentagon to emphasize the importance of these sites".

Fourth, maybe the Iraqi people should have a say in what's more important to them? How many Iraqis would agree that saving the oil ministry was more important?

Fifth, this is a war of "hearts and minds".  The US is trying to convince the Iraqi people and the rest of the Arab world that they're liberators, not colonizers.  How great is it for the US to have Rumsfeld asking "How many vases can there be in the whole country?", while the museum is being looted and the oil resources defended?

the oil ministry is just a building with some useful (but replaceable) documents in it.  The museum and the library were symbols of a culture that transcended religions and oppressive regimes.  If you want to build a free Iraqi people, those are the symbols you want to use, not let get destroyed.  The US screwed up.  Now all youi can do is damage control.

[Dnil]

but who looted the museum?

[Dowding]

Iraqis who will sell the artifacts on the international antiquities black market. The priceless treasures will be in some rich git's vault - and the guy will most likely be a Westerner.

Archaological socialism cannot be used as a justification for the looting.

[Octavius]

Originally posted by OIO
You never played Command and Conquer dowding?


You cant build no friggin hospitals, barracks, power plants, etc if you do not build the goddarned refinery first!

The spice must flow!


Whoa... just read this and got a chill up my spine. C&C as an analogy for real life stuff.. lol!

Usually you'd have to blow up an oil derrick in order to find a crate and money!

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Dnil
but who looted the museum?

Every society has it's criminals.  That is why we have police officers.  The US supplanted the authority of the police service in Baghdad and so had an obligation to perform that service.

[Toad]

But who would expect a "seamless" changeover?

[Wlfgng]

now let's see...

the US warned that we would invade for months.. everyone on the world knew it.. they were preparing for war.

Why didn't they secure their museums?
I saw shop owners barricading their stores, people preparing for the worst.  It seems to me they should have protected their valuables.

Obviously they couldn't stop all the looters but they could have at least tried!  Or moved the stuff elsewhere, etc.

[Syzygyone]

As I understand it, the Museum had a 24 hour evacuation plan but never put it into play.  Perhaps they didn't think it was necessary since their information minister said the infidels were being slaughtered and were no where near Baghdad.  Hmmmmm.......

[Montezuma]

To carry this ludicrous comparison further, what is more important to America, the Smithsonian or the Chevron-Texaco headquarters?