Thousands demonstrate in anti-Bush march...

[AKIron]

Originally posted by 10Bears
We liberated Iraq.  That’s nice.. And it won’t be too hard to revise some history to fit with current events. The USSR was merely liberating Hungary.. The good German people living in Poland had to be liberated from the Polish regime. The Japanese simply used a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor.

You've got the right idea there 10Bears but a few of the names wrong. We liberated Korea (among others) from the Japanese, France (and others) from Germany, and Russia (with others) from the USSR.

Now we can add Iraq from Saddam.

[Toad]

Just so no one is confused, here's is the actual bet.

For example, there has already been some "forgetfulness" on how long a period of time they had to find the stuff. It wasn't ONE month... it was THREE months.

It's all in the "10Bears Does Iraq have Chem/Bio Weapons?" thread in the O-Club.

Just so everyone's on the same page:

03-10-2003 03:32 PM Toad:

10Bears, I gotta laugh. I think Nash and I are pretty much on the same page overall. Guess you don't see it.

OK, here's the bet:

$45 (or more if you like.)


1. Use of chem/bio weapons during the combat phase means I win. Finding chem/bio weapons with 3 months after cessation of hostilities means I win.

(Sorry, but you know 2 weeks isn't long enough for Blix and crew to unpack their underwear and this stuff is obviously pretty well hidden. It's going to take a little time to get the collaborators to come forward and lead the way. I doubt Iraqis are going to want to spill the beans until they're quite sure the Hussein days are over.)

Three months, that's the bet. Hey, it's taken them 12 YEARS to get this far.

2. It's gotta be Blix and crew OR his UN appointed follow-on. We don't know; Blix might quit in disgust if the war starts or something. So, make it a UN sponsored investigator or something.

3. Any chem/bio weaponry or components that are on the prohibited list counts. You're saying they have nothing on the prohibited list, I'm saying they do.

After all, this war is about them not 'fessing up to what they have that is on the list. If they have the prohibited precursor chemicals to VX for example... bingo, I win.

Here's the reply:

03-10-2003 05:44 PM 10Bears:

Your on 3 months..

I have a quibble with 2nd part.. Delivery systems are out. They can be used for conventional ordanance.

That's the bet.

Here's my prediction:

The stuff will be found. The UN won't have Blix & Co. back in there by then. However, it will be documented by every reputable news agency in the world.

10Bears will refuse to pay because the UN didn't "officially" verify it within 3 months.

That's my guess.

BTW, we started the "90 day clock" on 19 April. So, relax until July.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by 10Bears
Heheheh Thank you!..
Sharpen your debate skills.. next time you'll win one.

The stupidity and sheer evil of what you said is beyond debate, if you truley belived what you wrote in that post no amount of logic and discussion will be of any use.  

So once again 10bears, and frankly I'm shocked that your extremism and hatred extends so far to seriouly equate the USA with Nazi Germany and the USSR, there is only one thing to say:

FUK YOU!

[Boroda]

Probably my last attempt to argue with the radio. Radio always knows better. It simply repeats what they say on the other end and never listens to your arguments.

No, Stalin doesn't piss me off any more than any other genocidal dictator from Hitler to Idi Amin to Hussein does.


Well, your "peacemakers" couldn't even accuse Miloshevich in genocide. Blah blah as it alway goes.


More than anything, those kind of people make me feel sorry for the populations they oppress and slaughter.


Again trying to tell me I am/was opressed and slaughtered?! JFYI: majority of Soviet people lived much better under USSR then now in "democratic" society.


Aggression? Great comeback there Yakov!


Who the hell is that Yakov!? I think I should call you Kvaka-Zadavaka or mister Twister next time.


Invasion of Finland ring any bells for you?


Toad, "invasion" in Finland had only one purpose: to protect Leningrad, and you know it. League of Nations didn't recognize Soviet term of "indirect agression" (BTW, a bad translation, "kosvennaya agressiya" is quite different from "nepryamaya agressiya"), but this term exactly describes what happened in June 24th on Finnish border. JFYI, after the White-Finnish war USSR simply forced an exchange of territory, offered to Finns before the war.



Stabbing Poland in the back? Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty? Soviet troops invaded Polish territory from the east on September 17, 1939 while the following treaties and agreements were in effect between the governments of Poland and the Soviet Union:


Skipping the list of treaties with Polish state that by Sept. 17th 1939 ceased to exist. Now tell me how many people Red Army saved from nazis in Eastern Poland. Then tell me why French army, 80 divisions, and British army didn't do ANYTHING about German invasion against their ally. Then tell me why noone in the "free world" said anything against Soviet Union entering former Polish territory.

This one is definetly the best:


The Convention for the Definition of Aggression signed in London on July 3, 1933.


This "convention" didn't include basic concepts like indirect agression. As usually, "free world" motivation was clear and bold: to make Hitler attack USSR, and then get everything for free. Some countries even succeeded in such politics.



Oh, yeah.. remember what happened on 15 June 1940 in Lithuania?

June 17, 1940 in Latvia?

September 28, 1939 in Estonia?


You call THAT an "agression"!? Damn, it happened after absolutely Democratic procedures. Not even forced like "democratic" elections in West Germany and South Korea.   JFYI: nazi Germany was an open threat to Pribaltic states. Annexion of Memel/Klaipeda is definetly unknown?


The "incorporation" of Albania, Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia into the Soviet Union after WW2?


Toad, usually I quit discussions with people who show such brilliant ignorance in history. Reading your posts I just can't understand - is it just you so tragically misinformed or it is a new-fangled "truth" that Western people are fed now, with history completely rewritten and forgotten


And of course things didn't really change after Stalin did they?

There's November 4th, 1956, a date all Hungarians probably remember.

Or the night of August 20-21 1968, a time I'm sure all Czech's probably remember.




I just wonder what will US of A do when some day they'll find people in a "friendly" country hanging your allies on lamp posts. And JFYI: "invasions" in Hungary and Czechoslovakia were perforemed by Warsaw Treaty troops, not only Soviet.

Again: did anyone in the "free world" care about poor Magyars and Czechs? Did they do anything to help them after they arranged that great provocations? No they didn't.

Now, please, I want to hear your version of what US of A did several times in Panama (including open state terrorism against Columbia), Grenada, Cuba and many other countries.

How about open support to terrorist organisations, including terrorist bombings of Yugoslavia, supplying weapons to Afghan "rebels", Chechen terrorists, etc. I simply fail to name a terrorist organisation that didn't get support from the "land of free".


When it comes to "International Gangster", I think the Soviet Union gets to keep the trophy. No other nation will ever come close.


Currently there is just one nation that acts using purely criminal methods in it's foreign policy. Many things changed here in past 12 years. Nothing changed in your country. The same people who planned a "limited nuclear war" against Russia 20 years ago keep the same political line. Unfortunately there in no more USSR to stop that gangsters who drop cassete bombs on children to assure future profits for monopolies they control.


Pretty cool when Stalin also assured that you folks will forever have the "Genocide against a nation's own population" trophy locked up forever too......

I seriously doubt the day will ever come that ANY nation will topple the record of aggression and abuse of their neighbors and citizens that the Soviet Union managed to compile in such a relatively short time.


I only can point that USA did a great job in genocide of Indians. We have fundamental differences in our mentalities... You will tell me all that HR blabla, but just look what was going on in your own country 30-40 years ago. Just tell me, could anyone openly state he was a member of Communist party, and where he could have find himself very soon.


But you go ahead and be proud of that.... it's what makes you such a valuable comedy addition to this BBS!

Keep 'em coming! You've got me laughing so hard my face hurts.

Toad, you can laugh as much as you can. You're welcome. I only advise you to go read some books that don't contain only the Party Line approved materials, allowed for reading by US military personell.

[Toad]

Boroda, I think I'll just let your remarks stand.

Maybe a few of the Finns here will jump in and agree with you.. but I doubt it.

If we have any Poles, I'm sure they'll agree with you too.... especially any of them that are related to the million+ Poles deported to the Soviet Union.

Or you can read some "outside" information here:

THE SOVIET ETHNIC CLEANSING CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE POLES DURING WORLD WAR II

Or HERE

The Soviets followed in their Nazi friends’ footsteps. They aimed at Polish intelligentsia, army and police officers, scientists, politicians and state officials in order to replace the existing democracy with communist indoctrination. They spread terror in order to make the imposition of the Soviet regime on the occupied territory easier. More than 1.5 mln of the Polish citizens were deported to forced labour concentration camps where most of them died of starvation and disease. The Katyn Forest Massacre exemplifies the methods employed by the “progressive” Soviet system and became the symbol of a senseless hecatomb.

Or you could check with a Polish historian about how fair and unbiased your schoolbooks are:

Polish historian Bohdan Cywinski's reports from Russia in Rzeczpospolita (November 30-December 1, 2002). Cywinski writes of a high school textbook of Russian history he picked up in a Moscow bookstore in November 2002. In the textbook, the partitions of Poland coengineered by Catherine the Great are described as "enlargement of the western frontier." The name of Poland is not mentioned, and no ethical reflection accompanies this particularly heinous and unprovoked aggression of one state against another, of the kind NATO was supposed to protect Western Europe against. Remarks Cywna "A nation that offers such unreflective history textbooks to its youth and praises conflicts between states in such a way has to be treated as an enemy of Poland and of myself personally. . . [Russia keeps cultivating] hostility toward peoples who dare to fight for identity and sovereignty. She says: we shall tolerate you within our borders, but if you dare to rebel, we shall strangulate you and shall cut your throats."

BTW, you never talk about the Third Partition of Poland? Why is that?

Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia were occupied by the Soviets under  "democratic procedures"? Man, I hope we have some of those nationalities reading this board.  Wonder why they actually welcomed the Germans when the Germans kicked the Soviets out of Estonia after this "democratic occupation".


Loved your excuse of the aggressive invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia too. Maybe we have a few of those guys on the board that can comment about how they "provoked" the invasion. It was that "freedom" thing, wasn't it?

See, it's this kind of comedy that no one but you provides. So don't leave, OK?

You know, the USofA became a nation in 1776. The "genocide" of the the American Indian since that date is miniscule compared to Stalin's Terror.

“In the original version of his book The Great Terror, Robert Conquest gave the following estimates of those arrested, executed, and incarcerated during the height of the Purge:

Arrests, 1937-1938 - about 7 million
Executed - about 1 million
Died in camps - about 2 million
In prison, late 1938 - about 1 million
In camps, late 1938 - about 8 million

Conquest concluded that "not more than 10 percent of those then in camp survived." Updating his figures in the late 1980’s based on recently-released archival sources, he increased the number of "arrests" to 8 million, but reduced the number in camps to "7 million, or even a little less." This would give a total death toll for the main Purge period of just under ten million people. About 98 percent of the dead (Gendercide Watch's calculation) were male."

Compare that to three of the absolute worst Indian massacres by the US Army. Custer at the Battle of the Wa****a killed ~103 Indians.  Chivington killed ~ 200 at the Sand Creek massacre. And at Wounded Knee ~153 Indians were killed.

Like I said, no nation will ever catch up to the Soviet Union in wars of agression or in the obliteration of its own population.

[GRUNHERZ]

Toad why even bother? You know he will just reject anything you say or tell you that Uncle Joe was a kind hearted leader of his people and the greatest russin ever and that the USSR was a beacon of freedom it its time.

I, for one, find it much more productive to simply make fun of Boroda..

[Boroda]

Toad, it's useless to argue.

Russians are evil.

9 millions in prisons and camps 1938... Beautiful. Amazing. That guy Conquest has beautiful imagination. Declassified Soviet numbers are 2 million. Number of executed is also about 5 times more. Duck such "historians".

I wonder how there are some Russians still alive.

About Poland - again, it's hard for me to discuss history of our relations, because of a "guilt complex" But in 1939 Poland was definetly an enemy of USSR, and, to some extent, an ally of Hitler. They got their part of divided Czechoslovakia, no letting USSR assist Czechs according to an assistance treaty. And believe me, the "cleasings" could not compared to what nazis did... Even to "coalition" cleansings now in Iraq against BAAS party members.

I just advise you to read some things about status of Poland and Finland in Russian Empire. Did I tell you that my Grandfather graduated from Warsaw univercity in 1914? He spoke Polish perfectly... In 1920 he was on Romanian border, his regiment pushed Makhno out of Ukraine...

Toad, your anti-Soviet efforts are amazing, but you'll not make us rewrite the history of our country. Brit-Am agression in Iraq helped many people understand the real meaning of your "democracy" and "freedom". At least I hope we'll not see any more school history textbooks where Stalingrad gets 5 lines and American Pacific campain gets 10 pages. As one wise man said at the wbfree.net forum: "All that Soviet Power fed us about Communism was a lie. But what they said about imperialism turned out to be true".

I don't like modern bonehead commies. But I hate "cavemen anticommunists" even more

My congratulations. You turned another thread into a "Boroda wants to kill all Poles", from an informative discussion with a person who has first-hand information about situation in Iraq and pointed out some interesting facts about "coalition" occupational policy.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Toad why even bother? You know he will just reject anything you say or tell you that Uncle Joe was a kind hearted leader of his people and the greatest russin ever and that the USSR was a beacon of freedom it its time.

I, for one, find it much more productive to simply make fun of Boroda..

He didn't bother. He just repeated the "popular history" programm his built-in radio is tuned to

JFYI, Stalin was not a "rusin". He was a Georgian. Funny how you switch to Serbian sometimes

[10Bears]

Boroda hijack your own thread sheesh.. weapons of massive text.

Toad I only responded this morning because of Rude suggesting I didn’t pay off the wager.

The stuff will be found. The UN won't have Blix & Co. back in there by then. However, it will be documented by every reputable news agency in the world.

10Bears will refuse to pay because the UN didn't "officially" verify it within 3 months

Speculating are we?.. I already got the check made out. I WANT you to win...
As we discussed, as per stipulation of the bet, anything found must be verified by an official 3rd party.. Judith Miller’s article in the NYT yesterday or the Washington times don’t cut it. If it’s the UN, so be it.. In fact it needs to be for sanctions to be lifted. Either or, the UN need to declare Iraq free of WMD.

Gurnhurz, yeah.. some of that was troll.. but there’s a bit of truth to it. I assumed most thinking people know the difference between liberation.. removing an foreign occupying force and overthrow and occupation. Adding the term “liberation” tries to put a little lipstick on a pig.. but it’s still a pig. The part about the Japanese attack on Pear Harbor was not a troll.. We just did exactly what we fought them for.

I am a citizen of the world first.. an American citizen second.. Some people on this board have no idea how small the world really is.. how interconnected business and trade are. When you suggest boycotting products from Germany, you are bashing the good people of North Carolina.. Did you know that?.. Did you know the BMW plant in Raleigh employs over 2000 people?  

If I win this bet Toad, I’m sure Bush will tell the world pretty much what Gurnhurz just told me.. the words might be changed a little.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by 10Bears
Boroda hijack your own thread sheesh.. weapons of massive text.

I beat you didn't see Toad using "radio-active flooding" (tm) He knows it's hard to me to read English and to reply to his endless posts. You know, different language and even different alphabet. 12-15 years ago I read tons of English sci-fi, mostly because a 200 pages book lasted 5 times longer then Russian, but when I understood that I spend the same one day on this English book and equal book in Russian - I quitted... So this days BBS posts are my only practice in English.

BTW, English is beautiful language. I adore English writers, who have to express so much using such primitive forms... Mark Twain, Hamingway, Vonnegut, can you give me some new names that follow this line? We are maybe 10 years behind you literature

[blitz]

Originally posted by ra
The US has always paid for its oil, usually at prices which are artificially inflated by cartels.  I can't think of a time when the US got oil for free.  
ra

Nah ra, please do a search about Iraqs history and the 7 sisters from USA who stole Iraqs oil as long as possible.


Regards Blitz






America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous

[GRUNHERZ]

"Gurnhurz, yeah.. some of that was troll.. but there’s a bit of truth to it. I assumed most thinking people know the difference between liberation.. removing an foreign occupying force and overthrow and occupation. Adding the term “liberation” tries to put a little lipstick on a pig.. but it’s still a pig. The part about the Japanese attack on Pear Harbor was not a troll.. We just did exactly what we fought them for.

I am a citizen of the world first.. an American citizen second.. Some people on this board have no idea how small the world really is.. how interconnected business and trade are. When you suggest boycotting products from Germany, you are bashing the good people of North Carolina.. Did you know that?.. Did you know the BMW plant in Raleigh employs over 2000 people?"

First Japan did not give the USA 12 years to complyt with a cease fire after america lost a war with Japan - so that is completely different. The usa was not bound by a cease fire agreement to not have a pacific navy. Plus the japanese attacked the usa not because they feared an unprovoked us attack but because they wanted to eliminate the us navy so they could continue their ongoing 8 year war of brutal real life conquest in china and all of asia. So I must say again your comparsion is enterily inapropriate even ignorant. You did know that by 1941 Japan had been conquering china for 8 years, you do know that they had ivaded and occupied french colonial possesions is southeast asia, you did know that the usa took steps to counter japans agression by cutting off oil sales and scrap iron shipments. you did know all these things when you comapred our efforts in iraq to japans culmination of 8 years of brutal asian conquest with their attack on pearl harbor... Did you know these things?

If you think you are citizen of the world first then I think thats sad - I can see why you prefess this sort of ignorant hatred as in that last post towards america so easily - you dont really consider yourself an american. I am fully aware how interconnected the world is, however one must undertsnd that ones own country is the primary entity internationally. There is no one "world", thats a hippe myth that will never happend because the interests of all nations will never  align for any significant amount of time.

[GRUNHERZ]

They didnt steal oil you idiot, the big us companies developed the arabian oil fields and made the arabs tremendously wealthy for a  long long time before opec became relevant.

Why on earth did I just waste time responding to blitz?

[blitz]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"Gurnhurz, yeah.. some of that was troll.. but there’s a bit of truth to it. I assumed most thinking people know the difference between liberation.. removing an foreign occupying force and overthrow and occupation. Adding the term “liberation” tries to put a little lipstick on a pig.. but it’s still a pig. The part about the Japanese attack on Pear Harbor was not a troll.. We just did exactly what we fought them for.

I am a citizen of the world first.. an American citizen second.. Some people on this board have no idea how small the world really is.. how interconnected business and trade are. When you suggest boycotting products from Germany, you are bashing the good people of North Carolina.. Did you know that?.. Did you know the BMW plant in Raleigh employs over 2000 people?"

First Japan did not give the USA 12 years to complyt with a cease fire after america lost a war with Japan - so that is completely different. The usa was not bound by a cease fire agreement to not have a pacific navy. Plus the japanese attacked the usa not because they feared an unprovoked us attack but because they wanted to eliminate the us navy so they could continue their ongoing 8 year war of brutal real life conquest in china and all of asia. So I must say again your comparsion is enterily inapropriate even ignorant. You did know that by 1941 Japan had been conquering china for 8 years, you do know that they had ivaded and occupied french colonial possesions is southeast asia, you did know that the usa took steps to counter japans agression by cutting off oil sales and scrap iron shipments. you did know all these things when you comapred our efforts in iraq to japans culmination of 8 years of brutal asian conquest with their attack on pearl harbor... Did you know these things?

If you think you are citizen of the world first then I think thats sad - I can see why you prefess this sort of ignorant hatred as in that last post towards america so easily - you dont really consider yourself an american. I am fully aware how interconnected the world is, however one must undertsnd that ones own country is the primary entity internationally. There is no one "world", thats a hippe myth that will never happend because the interests of all nations will never  align for any significant amount of time.

If ya can't see the total difference between WW2 and current Iraq War than nobody can help you.

Saddam Hussein has absolutely nothin to do with Adolf Hitler.
He's just one bloody dictator outa dozens that were supported by the western countries in the last decades.
Absolutely nothin special about him--- ahhh wait--- he's sitting on a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig oil field


Regards Blitz



America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous

[GRUNHERZ]

Wow blitz I have always known you were dumb but I never had cause to doubt your basic reading ability until now....