Author Topic: Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?  (Read 4275 times)

Offline Batz

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Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« on: April 18, 2003, 03:25:10 PM »
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor

I know this is some sort of "Special Emergency power "

Its in reference the 190d9. Is this a special low altitude compressor gear? or something else?

Also does anyone have any info on a low pressure Mw50 system referred to as the "Oldenburg system"?

There was also a  system referred to as "Ladedruckssteigerungs-Rüstatz". Apparently it increased the power of Jumo 213A from 1750 to 1900 without MW50 or GM-1.

TIA

Offline HoHun

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Re: Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2003, 04:57:59 PM »
Hi Batz,

>Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor

Water-methanol injection ("Sonder-Notleistung") for a Jumo 213 with the 213A supercharger ("A-Lader") using high-altitude gear at low altitude ("Bodenmotor"). Yields 2140 HP at sea level.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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Re: Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2003, 05:59:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor

I know this is some sort of "Special Emergency power "

Its in reference the 190d9. Is this a special low altitude compressor gear? or something else?

TIA


I tend to believe it`s kind of a cropped Supercharger gear like on the cropped SpitV LFs... I think they were running the SC less hard which meant they were using less power to drive the SC from the engine, and this would also explain why the high alt. performance suffered in this configuration.

Offline HoHun

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Re: Re: Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2003, 04:23:40 PM »
Hi Isegrim,

>I tend to believe it`s kind of a cropped Supercharger gear like on the cropped SpitV LFs... I think they were running the SC less hard which meant they were using less power to drive the SC from the engine, and this would also explain why the high alt. performance suffered in this configuration.

If the supercharger wheel was cropped, an entirely new power curve would result, but from the speed curve you can see that it smoothly approaches the normal speed curve above full throttle height so it's definitely not that.

But you've pointed out an important aspect: Maybe the (very) slight reduction in altitude power we're seeing is the result of a lower compression ratio implemented by using shorter piston tops?

This would allow the use of slightly higher boost pressures at low altitude at a slight reduction of high altitude power. At least the latter is evident from the graph, the former is hidden by the much larger increase gained from MW50 use.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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Re: Re: Re: Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2003, 05:13:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Isegrim,

If the supercharger wheel was cropped, an entirely new power curve would result, but from the speed curve you can see that it smoothly approaches the normal speed curve above full throttle height so it's definitely not that.

But you've pointed out an important aspect: Maybe the (very) slight reduction in altitude power we're seeing is the result of a lower compression ratio implemented by using shorter piston tops?

This would allow the use of slightly higher boost pressures at low altitude at a slight reduction of high altitude power. At least the latter is evident from the graph, the former is hidden by the much larger increase gained from MW50 use.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


Hi HoHun!

First I must clarify what I wanted to mean. I belive they have reduced the 2ns SC speed gear ratio to a lower level, which meant the supercharger was running on a lower RPM compared to the previous configuration. This is what is called "cropped SC" in English, right? Maybe I used wrong term.

This would result in lower power drain from the engine towards the SC. At low altitudes where less supercharging is needed to keep constant boost, this increases power in a way by conserving more power to the engine.

At higher altitudes this reduced supercharging capacity isn`t enough to keep up power.

I am fairly sure that they did something to the supercharger.. Otherwise why would they refer to a the "A"-Supercharger [configured] as a low altitude supercharger? (If my translation is correct.

In any case it`s clear from the curve that there is only ONE supercharger speed. The Bodenlader-speed curve has no stops or breaks, it`s a straight line, unlike the others, indicating contstant power (up to 3500m).



I think it`s is likely to be that they probably disabled the 1st supercharger speed (which saved some  power drain already), and changed the 2nd SC gear to a lower RPM (less power drain again).

So the additional speed is due to the power saved at lower altitudes with reduced supercharging. That seems a simple enough explanation, without too much complication. But it`s maybe possible that additional or other ways were used... it`s hard to say for sure w/o having some hard evidence, we can only speculate.

As for your idea, would it be technically possible to increase powers with B-4 fuel, with reducing the CR, without premature detionation?

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2003, 09:19:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim

First I must clarify what I wanted to mean. I belive they have reduced the 2ns SC speed gear ratio to a lower level, which meant the supercharger was running on a lower RPM compared to the previous configuration. This is what is called "cropped SC" in English, right? Maybe I used wrong term.
 



Yes, very much so the 'wrong term'.

"Cropped" does not mean a different SC gear ratio but that the diameter of the SC impellor was reduced.

Offline HoHun

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2003, 03:14:42 PM »
Hi Isegrim,

>I belive they have reduced the 2ns SC speed gear ratio to a lower level, which meant the supercharger was running on a lower RPM compared to the previous configuration.

This is entirely impossible as above 9 km altitude, the speed of the Bodenmotor-equipped D-9 equals that of the standard D-9 with B4 and MW50. The Bodenmotor D-9 is just a few km/h slower than the standard D-9, and this difference is just too subtle for anything like a different supercharger.

(After looking at that curve again, I don't believe in different compression either.)

>Otherwise why would they refer to a the "A"-Supercharger [configured] as a low altitude supercharger? (If my translation is correct.

Actually, "Bodenmotor" merely means that the engine's full-throttle height is equivalent to sea level. "A"-type supercharger means it's the supercharger of the Jumo 213A.

>This is what is called "cropped SC" in English, right? Maybe I used wrong term.

The term "cropped supercharger" was coined for the Spitfire LF V. Not only did it use a smaller supercharger wheel, it was actually just the standard wheel machined down to a smaller diameter. I'd imagine a wheel designed from the outset for the smaller diameter would have been more efficient, so "cropped" had a slightly negative connotation.

>In any case it`s clear from the curve that there is only ONE supercharger speed.

We certainly agree on this point! :-)

>As for your idea, would it be technically possible to increase powers with B-4 fuel, with reducing the CR, without premature detionation?

Even without reducing the compression ratio :-)

The Jumo 213A-1 power chart shows that special emergency power (with MW50, yielding 2140 HP at sea level) drops to the same level as take-off and emergency power (1900 HP at sea level) at 5.2 km altitude. That's just the altitude at which the speed curves intersect.

For some reason, the 1900 HP D-9 has a 300 m higher full-throttle height so that it's 12 km/h faster at 5.5 km. Without this difference, both speed curves obviously would be equal above 5.2 km.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline niklas

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Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2003, 07:28:57 AM »
The "Bodenmotor" horsepower output is definitly around 2400, maybe even 2600. the 2140hp output is for the ~615km/h curve. I really canīt understand why you (Hohun) bring up over and over again that the Bodenmotor is for the standard 213A engine with mw50. You know that it isnt true

niklas

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2003, 07:50:32 AM »
Wasn`t that 2240 HP at SL with MW-50+B-4? At least that`s what my power curve shows. Do you have a different one?

I did some calculations with my emprical formula, if everything else is the same, you need 2525 HP to go 640km/h instead of the 615 km/h at 2240HP with C-3.

BTW, another question about that curve: if B4+MW50 yields the same power as C3 alone, why is the C-3 curve a little faster at the whole altitude range? Maybe the bombrack is present only on B4+mw50?

Offline HoHun

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Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2003, 03:13:47 PM »
Hi Niklas,

>The "Bodenmotor" horsepower output is definitly around 2400, maybe even 2600. the 2140hp output is for the ~615km/h curve. I really canīt understand why you (Hohun) bring up over and over again that the Bodenmotor is for the standard 213A engine with mw50. You know that it isnt true

Since I know you're usually well informed, how about contributing some information to prove your point? :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2003, 03:58:46 PM »
Hi Isegrim,

>Wasn`t that 2240 HP at SL with MW-50+B-4? At least that`s what my power curve shows. Do you have a different one?

No, I'm using the same curve. But remember that we're using only high gear for the supercharger - 2240 HP are the result of using low gear, while the high gear branch only yields 2140 HP at sea level.

>I did some calculations with my emprical formula, if everything else is the same, you need 2525 HP to go 640km/h instead of the 615 km/h at 2240HP with C-3.

Your assumption is that the Fw 190D-9 actually needs 2240 HP to get 615 km/h.

However, the Fw 190A-5 according to US tests needs only 1660 HP to get 549 km/h. With 2240 HP, it would get to 608 km/h despite its much larger frontal area which has a large impact on speed at sea level.

Accordingly, the Fw 190D-9 with its much smaller frontal area doesn't need 2000+ HP to get to 600+ km/h.

And it shouldn't be forgotten is that the Jumo 213 yielded considerable amounts of exhaust thrust. I'd estimate the Jumo 213A gave (at least) 125 kp at 2140 HP. These 125 kp are worth around 370 HP in additional shaft horsepower at 620 km/h, so we're actually talking about a 2510 HP aircraft.

>BTW, another question about that curve: if B4+MW50 yields the same power as C3 alone, why is the C-3 curve a little faster at the whole altitude range? Maybe the bombrack is present only on B4+mw50?

Does B4 + MW50 yield the same power as C3 alone? I know this was said for the DB605 series engines, but I'm not so sure it's true for the Jumo 213 as well.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline niklas

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Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2003, 05:37:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Niklas,

Since I know you're usually well informed, how about contributing some information to prove your point? :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


Isegrim understood. You not. We have gone through this over and over again. Donīt come with pixel counting. Just calculate like Isegrim. Again, he understood. And start from the well known 1750ps curve. Or get the pressure from the reduced critical altiutude.

niklas

Offline HoHun

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Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2003, 06:02:45 PM »
Hi Niklas,

>We have gone through this over and over again.

By coincidence, I just found one of your posts on my hard disk that's two years old - you shared my opinion about the D-9 power back then.

Obviously, something caused you to change your mind since then. If you'd explain what that was, you might be able to convince me :-)

>Just calculate like Isegrim. Again, he understood. And start from the well known 1750ps curve.

If you have a speed curve that's labeled "1750 PS", please post it :-)

If "well-known" means that you guess it's 1750 PS, you might be falling into the same trap as Isegrim: If your guess is wrong, your conclusion is wrong, too.

>Or get the pressure from the reduced critical altiutude.

Could you provide an example for that?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline butch2k

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Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2003, 04:02:50 AM »
Hohun, the 1750/1780PS curve is the one labelled 1 on the chart, this one match exactly with the other data i have for 1750PS.

Offline HoHun

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Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor ?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2003, 04:49:58 AM »
Hi Butch,

>Hohun, the 1750/1780PS curve is the one labelled 1 on the chart, this one match exactly with the other data i have for 1750PS.

Could you post the other data then so we could verify the absolute power requirement?

Bbury's data from Focke-Wulf performance calculations shows that the Fw 190D-9 with Jumo 213A-1 achieves 611 km/h at sea level at 1925 HP power:

http://jagdhund.freeyellow.com/FW190D-9/D9speedWeb_01.jpg

http://jagdhund.freeyellow.com/FW190D-9/D9speedWeb_02.jpg

http://jagdhund.freeyellow.com/FW190D-9/D9speedWeb_03.jpg

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)