Event Idea...

[Reschke]

The Battle of the Philippine Sea; June 19th 1944 Better known as The Great Mariana's Turkey Shoot". For the most part we have the IJ aircraft set and we have the USN aircraft set as well. The only thing we don't have is a map with the island of Saipan on it for the setting. The Japanese had reinforced the 17th Airfleet on Saipan in the days leading up the invasion of Saipan by the US forces based on intelligence reports.

Yes I know that it was historically a really lopsided outcome for the US but there is a potential for the Japanese to rewrite history in a single day event such as this.

http://www.warships1.com/W-OOB/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Phillipine_Sea.htm

Order of Battle The Battle of the Phillipine Sea, 19-20 June 1944
contributed by Dan Muir

Imperial Japanese Naval Units (IJN)
Operation ‘A-GO’
1st Mobile Fleet
Vice Admiral Jisaburo Ozawa
Mobile Force Vanguard (‘C’ Force)
Vice Admiral Takeo Kurita

3rd Carrier Squadron
Rear Admiral Obayashi
CVL Chitose (F)
21 - A6M5b, 3 - B6N, 6 - B5N  (Air Group 653)
CVL Chiyoda
21 - A6M5b, 3 - B6N, 6 - B5N  (Air Group 653)
CVL Zuiho
21 - A6M5b, 3 - B6N, 6 - B5N  (Air Group 653)

1st Battle Squadron
Vice Admiral Matome Ugaki
BB Yamato
BB Musashi

3rd Battle Squadron
Vice Admiral Suzuki
BB Kongo
BB Haruna

4th Cruiser Squadron
Vice Admiral Takeo Kurita
CA Atago (F)
CA Takao
CA Chokai
CA Maya

7th Cruiser Squadron
CA  Kumano
CA Suzuya
CA Tone
CA Chikuma

2nd Destroyer Squadron
Rear Admiral Hayakawa
CL Noshiro (F)

31st Desdiv, Desron 2, 2nd Fleet
DD Asashimo
Lt. Commander Yoshirou Sugihara
DD Kishinami
Commander Toshirou Mifune
DD Okinami
Commander Akira Makino

32nd Desdiv, Desron 2, 2nd Fleet
DD Tamanami
Commander Tomiji Chihogi

17th Desdiv, Desron 10, 3rd Fleet
DD Hamakaze
Commander Kazue Maekawa

32nd Desdiv, Desron 2, 2nd Fleet
DD Fujinami
Commander Tatsuji Matsuzaki

Attached to Desron 2, 2nd Fleet
DD Shimakaze
Commander Hiroshi Uwai

‘A-Force’
Vice Admiral Jisaburo Ozawa

1st Carrier Squadron
CV Taiho (F)*
26 - A6M5, 23 - D4Y, 17 - B6N, 2 - D3A (Air Group 601)
CV Shokaku*
Captain Hiroshi Matsubara
26 - A6M5, 24 - D4Y, 17 - B6N, 2 - D3A (Air Group 601)
CV Zuikaku
Captain Takeo Kaizuka
27 - A6M5, 23 - D4Y, 17 - B6N, 3 - D3A (Air Group 601)

Note:  Per reference #4 this represents the aircraft actually embarked, which were evenly divided among the three carriers of the 1st Carrier Squadron for the ‘A-GO’ operation. Where the type of aircraft was not able to be divided into a whole number the odd aircraft have been assigned to the Shokaku and Zuikaku as they normally carried larger aircraft complements than that attributed to the Taiho.

5th Cruiser Squadron
Rear Admiral Shintaro Hashimoto
CA Haguro
CA Myoko

10th Destroyer Squadron
Rear Admiral Masanori Kimura
CL Yahagi (F)

10th Desdiv, Desron 10, 3rd Fleet
DD Asagumo
Commander Kazuo Shibayama

17th Desdiv, Desron 10, 3rd Fleet
DD Urakaze
Commander Shooichi Yoshida
DD Isokaze
Lt. Commander Saneho Maeda

61st Desdiv, Desron 10, 3rd Fleet
DD Wakatsuki
Commander Yasuatsu Suzuki
DD Hatsuyuki
Commander Shooichi Taguchi
DD Akizuki
Commander Tomoe Ogata
DD Shimotsuki
Commander Kenji Hatano

‘B’ Force
2nd Carrier Squadron
Rear Admiral Takaji Joshima

CV Junyo
Captain Kiyomi Shibuya
27 - A6M5, 6 - B6N, 9 - D4Y, 9 - D3A (Air Group 652)
CV  Hiyo*
Captain Toshiyuki Yokoi
26 - A6M5, 6 - B6N, 18 - D3A (Air Group 652)
CV Ryuho
27 - A6M5, 6 - B6N (Air Group 652)

1st Battleship Squadron
BB Nagato
CA  Mogami

4th Desdiv, Desron 10, 3rd Fleet
DD Michishio
Lt. Commander Tomoo Tanaka
DD Nowaki
Commander Setsuji Moriya
DD Yamagumo
Commander Shirou Ono

27th Desdiv, Desron 2, 2nd Fleet
DD Shigure
Lt. Commander Shigeru Nishino
DD Samidare
Lt. Commander Iokuta Nishimura

Unit??
DD Hayashimo
Lt. Commander Toshio Hirayama
DD Akishimo
Lt. Commander Kotarou Nakao

Tanker Group 1
Directly assigned to Combined Fleet
DD Hibiki
Commander Takeugi Mori

DesDiv 21
Directly assigned to Combined Fleet
DD Hatsushimo
Lt. Commander Kouji Takigawa

DesDiv 22, Desron 3, Central Pacific Area Fleet
DD Yunagi
Lt. Commander Goro Iwabuchi

Unit ??
DD Tsuga
Oiler Hayasui
(3) more oilers assigned

Tanker Group 2

Desdiv 17, Desron 10, 3rd Fleet
DD Yukikaze
Lt. Commander Masamichi Terauchi

Desdiv 30, Desron 3, 8th Fleet
DD  Uzuki
Lt. Yoshiro Watanabe
Oiler Genyo Maru*
Oiler Senyo Maru*

24 submarines

Note: three of the six tankers assigned to this operation were sunk.

Base Air Force Commander Marianas - Vice Admiral Kakuji Kakuta
250 aircraft of various types
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

United States Naval Forces (USN)
5th Fleet
Admiral Raymond Spruance

Task Force 58 (TF58)
Vice Admiral Marc Mitscher

TF 58.1
Rear Admiral Joseph J. (‘Jocko’) Clark

CV12 Hornet
41 - F6F, 33 - SB2C, 18 - TBF
CV10 Yorktown (F)
46 - F6F, 40 - SB2C, 17 - TBF, 4 - SBD
CVL24 Belleau Wood
26 - F6F,  9 - TBF
CVL29 Bataan
24 - F6F, 9 - TBF

CA68  Baltimore
CA69  Boston
CA70 Canberra
CL95 Oakland

Desron 46
DD589 Izard
DD581 Charrette
DD582 Conner
DD587 Bell
DD588 Burns
DD544 Boyd
DD545 Bradford
DD546 Brown
DD547 Cowell

TF 58.2
Rear Admiral Alfred E. Montgomery

CV17 Bunker Hill (F)
42 - F6F, 33 - SB2C, 18 - TBF
CV18 Wasp
39 - F6F, 32 - SB2C, 18 - TBF
CVL28 Cabot
26 - F6F, 9 - TBF
CVL26 Monterey
21 - F6F, 8 - TBF

CL60 Santa Fe
CL63 Mobile
CL80 Biloxi
CL54  San Juan

Desron 52
DD536 Owen
DD535 Miller
DD537 The Sullivans
DD538 Stephen Potter
DD539 Tingey
DD673 Hickox
DD674 Hunt
DD675 Lewis Hancock
DD676 Marshall

TF 58.3
Rear Admiral John W. Reeves

CV6 Enterprise (F)
Captain Matthais B Gardner
31 - F6F, 3 - F4U,  21 - SBD, 14 - TBF
CV16 Lexington (F) - Task Force 58 Flagship
Vice Admiral Marc Mitscher
41 - F6F, 34 - SBD, 18 - TBF
CVL30 San Jacinto
24 - F6F, 8 - TBF
CVL23 Princeton
24 - F6F, 9 - TBF

CA 35 Indianapolis (F) - 5th Fleet Flagship
Admiral Raymond Spruance
CL96 Reno
CL57 Montpelier
CL55 Cleveland
CL62 Birmingham

Desron 50
DD668 Clarence K. Bronson
DD669 Cotten
DD670 Dortch
DD671 Gatling
DD672 Healy
DD651 Cogswell
DD650 Caperton
DD652 Ingersoll
DD653 Knapp
DD515 Anthony
DD516 Wadsworth
DD513 Terry
DD630 Braine

TF 58.4
Rear Admiral William K. Harrill
CV9 Essex
Captain R. A. Ofstie
42 - F6F, 36 - SB2C, 20 - TBF
CVL27 Langley
23 - F6F, 9 - TBF
CVL25 Cowpens
23 - F6F, 9 - TBF

CL53 San Diego
CL64 Vincennes
CL81 Houston
CL89 Miami

DD486 Lansdowne
DD487 Lardner
DD488 McCalla
DD399 Lang
DD407 Sterett
DD408 Wilson
DD370 Case
DD398 Ellet
DD570 Charles Ausburne
DD478 Stanly
DD509 Converse
DD512 Spence
DD514 Thatcher
 
TF 58.7
Vice Admiral Willis A. Lee

BB56 Washington (F)
Captain Thomas R. Cooley

Battleship Division 8
Rear Admiral Glenn B. Davis
BB55 North Carolina
Captain Frank B. Thomas
BB58 Indiana (F)
Captain Jennings

Battleship Division 7
Rear Admiral O. M. Hustvedt
BB61 Iowa
Captain John L. McCrea
BB62 New Jersey
Captain Carl F. Holden

Battleship Division 9
Rear Admiral E. W. Hanson
BB57 South Dakota
BB60 Alabama
Captain Fred D. Kirtland

CA45 Wichita
CA36 Minneapolis
CA32 New Orleans
CA38 San Francisco

DD389 Mugford
DD371 Conyngham
DD392 Patterson
DD386 Bagley
DD357 Selfridge
DD480 Halford
DD472 Guest
DD473 Bennett
DD474 Fullam
DD475 Hudson
DD540 Twining
DD798 Monssen
DD541 Yarnall (Radar Pickett)
DD683 Stockham (Radar Pickett)
 

Pickett Line Submarines

TF 17
Vice Admiral Charles A. Lockwood, Jr.

SS179 Plunger
Edward Fahy
SS206 Gar
George Lautrup
SS311 Archerfish
William Wright
SS390 Plaice
Clyde Stevens, Jr.
SS193 Swordfish
Edward Montross
SS387 Pintado
Bernard Clarey
SS386 Pilotfish
Robert Close
SS282 Tunny
John Scott
SS218 Albacore
Commander J. W. Blanchard
SS197 Seawolf
SS385 Bang
Anton Gallaher
SS230 Finback
James Jordan
SS186 Stingray
Samuel Loomis
SS229 Flying Fish
Lt. Commander Risser
SS262 Muskallunge
Michael Russillo
SS304 Seahorse
Lt. Commander Cutter
SS388 Pipefish
William Deragon
SS244 Cavalla
Lt. Commander Kossler
SS215 Growler
Ben Oakley

7th Fleet Submarines
Rear Admiral Christie

SS256 Hake
John Broach
SS241 Bashaw
SS263 Paddle
SS257 Harder
Commander Samuel D. Dealey
SS255 Haddo
Chester Nimitz, Jr.
SS272 Redfin
Lt. Commander Austin
SS222 Bluefish
Charles Henderson
SS259 Jack
SS250 Flier
Jack Crowley

*Ships sunk in action

Sources:
1.  ‘Battleship at War’ by I. Musicant
2.  ‘The Big E’ by Commander E. Stafford, USN
3.  ‘The Iowa Class Battleships’ by M. Muir
4.  ‘Warship International No. 1, 1977; Fighting Flattops the Shokaku’s’ by W. Dickson
5.  ‘Sea Battles in Close-Up WWII, Vol. 2, Chapter 8, The Philippine Sea’ by E. Grove
6.  ‘Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945’ by J. Rohwer & G. Hummelchen
7.  ‘A Battle History of the Imperial Japanese Navy 1941-1945’ by P. Dull
8.  ‘Ship Data #1, USS North Carolina (BB-55)’ by A. Lott & R. Sumrall
9.  ‘Ship Data #2, USS Alabama (BB-60)’ by A. Lott & R. Sumrall
10.  Nihon Kaigun Website @ http://www.combinedfleet.com/ see Allyn D. Nevitt’s     Long Lancers section
11.  Nihon Kaigun Website @ http://www.combinedfleet.com/ see Anthony Tully’s ‘Kido Butai’ page
12. ‘U. S. Warships of WWII’ by P. Silverstone
13.  ‘Silent Victory; Vol. 2’ by C. Blair, Jr.

[blackwitch]

Reschke, nice research!!

BUT

IMHO the first para' of your proposal is where EVERY "Recreation" Scenario has initial problems.... it is a re run of a Battle that's already happened.  To make it "playable" it has to be "altered".

(and this alteration is the cause of ENDLESS disputes between opposing CO's in the Scenario planning stage)

Not that your Scenario would be any less the fun though

As an alternative I've been working on a proposal for a scenario in the future which I "hope" will overcome this "recreation" problem.

The idea I'm working on is to make the scenario more realistic  in the time leading up to the battle/scenario start.

In detail this will mean that the 2 CO's will have NOT be limited by what was used historically, weapons or tactics, instead they would have the option for making their own fleet!

As an example, I mean some thing like..

Each side has a set "budget" of a ~hundred credits, it can use that to choose..
the amount of fighters
the amount of Attack planes
the amount of scouts
The number of CV's in the Fleet
The number of other ships in the Fleet

Each of which will have a "cost"

There will also be the option of Ship based Radar Controllers (NO map in plane) assisting CV Defence, if their ship is sunk, there goes your RADAR.

the 2 sides would NOT know what the enemy has in the way of forces!

The map would be a huge Sea map, no land bases, and the "win" is sinking the enemies Fleet and  saving your own.

The event would have to run for a few hours, possibly up to 6 hours! to allow for scouts to find the enemy and then launch an attack on them.

There would be a strong (35mph) wind and a lot of clouds.

It would be a 1 life event.

In this way we would also be playing the scenario more in an MA arena mentality, albeit only 1 life, by this I mean playing "inside the normal game rules"

If you think about it, as far as setup goes, it's easier than trying to "adapt" an Historical Battle so it can be "even sided" enough to be playable, Because these constraints are the same for both sides

Generally, IMHO, Historical Battles are remembered because of their decisiveness, usually because one side outnumbered the other or they had a decisive weapon, but more often because they had the best Leader

[Arlo]

The idea I'm working on is to make the scenario more realistic in the time leading up to the battle/scenario start.

In detail this will mean that the 2 CO's will have NOT be limited by what was used historically, weapons or tactics, instead they would have the option for making their own fleet!

As an example, I mean some thing like..

Each side has a set "budget" of a ~hundred credits, it can use that to choose..
the amount of fighters
the amount of Attack planes
the amount of scouts
The number of CV's in the Fleet
The number of other ships in the Fleet

Each of which will have a "cost"

Hey, Aub! Deja vu all over again!

I'm glad to see this BW. It's something I've advocated for a long time now and it would make every scenario design something unique and original each time it's run (and the more "recycleable" a scenario - the less effort required to "redesign" them - which is quite often different folks reinventing the wheel). All scenarios should be considered alternate reality. If they aren't then we're just re-enactors - and what's the fun in that?

And skipper .... I like the setting and research! And your "one day massive event" is also something I've been an advocate of for a long time running.

[Reschke]

Thanks Blackwitch.

Well in terms of being outnumbered...yes that is what The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot" was. BUT In terms of attacking aircraft from the Japanese side it was alot closer than what it looked like. For escort and defense the USN had ~470 F6F's in TF 58.  While the Japanese had 222 fighters assigned to the attack fleet plus whatever was left on the island of Saipan. However there were 420+ aircraft as part of the attack on TF 58 but that included both fighters and attack aircraft. The USN also had 15 carriers while the Japanese had 8 carriers which was the bulk of their fleet and the IJN's one last shot at blunting the US movement toward the Home Islands.

So I still think it would be a nice setup but  it could be adapted to use a "Semi-Historical" setup with a points system alloted for CO's use as you have thought about.

[Batz]

Witch, Reschke

Looks good but the biggest problem with Ships in ah is that theres no disparity in hit quality.

You can only set the total amount of damage it takes to sink the ship where as in rl this varied greatly with hit placement and a lot times luck.

In an event as described the USN has a huge advantage in bombload per fighter and since ship "hardness" applies to all sides you may want to figure in some sort of death multiplier.

The best attack plane the japaneese currently have is the kate which is unarmed and very slow. The ki 67 is fast bomber but it has a small bomb load. So if say you set CV hardness to 10000lbs you would need double the japaneese planes to sink it compared to what the us would need. To balance that out you could figure in a loss percentage for ac killed.

Just "sinking" enemy ships is the easiest way but it doesnt account for things like damage control in which the US had the clear advantage.

The US also had the advantage in ship based radar and radar settings are universal. Also there is currently no way to turn off the clipboard map.

In BoB the gci were placed as a third country and we were able to get around the clipboard map this way.

Clouds are included with the map but a map as would be needed for what you have in mind would be easy to put together. As a matter of fact if you have the coral sea map by sundog its mostly ocean with lotsa fleets.

You might come up with a write up for a "snapshot" that reflects your current ideas. This way you can get an idea of the limitations of current "event" gameplay restrictions.

With AH2 under developement I am not sure how much time ht would have to put into to the things you would need changed to get all your ideas implemented.

I have 2 maps basically done of New Guinea. 1 is New Britain New Ireland the south east part new guinea and the Solomons. The other is all of New Guinea, Nothern Australia, New Britain New Ireland. Both are 512 x 512 and wholy unsuitable for the ct.

These were built with events in mind that for one reason or another (not the correct planes avail etc...) never got completed.

I had a good write up for the battle of the Bismark Sea to go along with one the maps.

Brady has several good ideas as well and Kantorri is working on an Okinawa scenario map as well.

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83416

The biggest hinderances are the available planeset and the limited event "features" that can be mplemented.


Good luck Though

[Reschke]

Thanks Batz. Already working on the write-up. I don't think this "event" would be something that could happen before the fall anyway; based on what HTC has on its plate right now. Besides playing IL-2: FB consumes my flight sim time for a little while.

[mia389]

Wheres the P38s.  Didnt the the U.S have a island that P38s could take off from. I do know it was a long flight for them and they had to conserve fuel if Im not mistaken.  I seen this on the history channel and the P38s played a big part but Im not forsure if this was the battle they were talking about.

[mia389]

Oh ya might not of been the P38L but zeros are uber that makes it fair

[Grimm]

It sounds like a great scenario Idea.

My suggestion is to run it 2 weeks and  players switch sides the following week.  

ie   Week #1   Team A is USN and Team B is IJN
      Week #2   Team A is IJN and Team B is USN

This means the battle can be very unbalanced, its up to each team to be more efficent and sucessful for a better score.  

Iv seen Pearl Harbor run this way with very good results.   I think trying to balance it for game play would just take away from the battle.

(maybe someone mentioned that later.. just breezed the replies)

[Reschke]

Thanks Grimm. I had not thought of that as an equalizer of sorts. I am still looking for map data on the area around Saipan for a terrain I am going to try. It should be simple enough because of that area having mostly water.

[Nilsen]

looks like a fun event idea Reschke