FM has been totally messed up, why??? read...

[HABICHT]

at first, i fly in real live. gliders and "loud" planes. so i know aerodynamics or the result of a steering input.

usually, when trying a new sim i fly two
easy manouvers.
1.) i try to stall and look when and what    
plane is doing. in this test, AH is ok (but not perfect).

2.) i try to SLIP the plane. don't know english word for it, but let's describe it:
you give full rudder left(or right) and then
you use ailerons to stay on course. result:
the fuselage is in the wind-> poor aerodynamic-> plane should decent fast.
it's a often used manouver for gliders to come down fast, or for planes without flaps, like P-J3C.
lot's of WW2 pilots used SLIPS for final approaches on runways. i used it for 100% in AH 1.03 in my G10 and the FW's.
in 1.04, i can CLIMB with full rudder input.
SLIP's aren't working anymore.
even a EXTRA330 (worlds best acrobatic plane) only can hold altitude or only little
climb with full power. (saw it often+talked to pilots).

so, whats wrong with the rudder in 1.04???
can't we only have FM of 1.03, WITH new turn and diving speeds????

[jedi]

Well, I think "totally messed up" is a bit strong.  I think for "normal" maneuvering, the new FM is a nice step in the right direction.  It's brought planes like the Zero and Macchi (and the Spit 9!) back into their rightful places.

That said, there are definitely some "weirdnesses" to be killed:

--You can still knife-edge indefinitely.  I had the F4U-1D climbing 1000 fpm at 90 degrees of bank and 150 mph.  I climbed to 12000 ft this way, and coulda kept right on going.  The Spit 9 would do it at an even lower speed.  Think what someone who wants to game the game will do with this little trick once it becomes widely used  

--You can still do a wings-level "rudder turn" without losing energy.  The Corsair will do about 10-20 degrees/sec using just the rudder, with opposite aileron to maintain the wings level, when it should be "slipping," losing either altitude or airspeed.  You're gonna develop some wicked headon shooters with this trick.  

--Spins?  Only tested the Spit and Hog.  NEITHER would spin with the power off.  They'd both gyrate around some if you held full back stick, but both would instantly recover when the stick was released.  Not convincing.  Stall + Yaw = Spin.  Power is not required for a spin in a real plane (although not all planes will spin easily).  If I used full power, both planes would "autorotate."  Unfortunately, both planes would also quickly recover simply by pulling power to idle and pushing the nose down slightly.  Seemed too "canned" a recovery technique.

Conclusion?  Something seems to be wrong with either the rudder modeling, the drag modeling, the "airfoil" used to create fuselage lift, or some combo thereof.

Like I said, good FM, better than before IMO, but those things gotta get fixed, or it's just not believable.  Serious suspension-of-disbelief issues for me right now.

--jedi

[Hangtime]

Rgr that Jedi.. good post. I'm sure Pyro's on it...

Err.. I Hope pyro's on it..

 

Hang

[leonid]

I just tried the knife-edge thing and a no-bank rudder turn in a Yak-9U, and the conclusion was just as jedi put it.  I agree that it needs to be looked into, but to be honest it doesn't suspend my belief, nor do I look at the new FM as majorly 'porked'.  WRT the FM, it's quite the contrary - a major improvement, adding more complexity and fun to the sim.  The only thing that hits me right off is that rudder deflection needs to create more drag than it is right now.

I do have one question: is it possible that if you factor down the induced drag value would that alone be enough to allow a fuselage to be an efficient airfoil?  Would there still be enough 'raw' lift?  I honestly don't know, but am curious.

Having said that, I must agree with jedi that the new FM is a good move, and knowing Doug and Dale's record these other issues will be satisfactorily addressed in due time.

[HABICHT]

hi again,
both of you are right. you said exactly what
i mean, only in better english.

about stall & spinns.
in 1.03 no prob, but i hade on in 1.04r1 in a
190a8....woo, blastet me away more than 10k.
was challenging to come out...

pyro, pls look at rudder, thx

[SFRT - Frenchy]

I just did an independant post about all this, I should had read this one before  
Join my thoughts, I'm not yelling after the flight model, But I think it's weird.

 I feel like that modifications made to be able to keep more E are making the flight model less realistic than before when flying at the bondaries at the flight envelop.
I'm confident in HTC being aware of it and working on a "True Anti E Bleeding FM".

[easymo]

 Im not as confident of change, after the last patch. I suspect the changed FM in 1.04 has more to do with money than enything else. If you count heads in the "realistic arena" of any of the online prop sims. And compare that with the number in the EZ mode arenas. It quickly becomes apparent where the money is in this genre.

 Im holding out hope for WW2OL. With all the tankers, and grunts helping to foot the bill. They might be able to "stick to there guns" on full realism

[gatt]

Well,
I really miss the old FM. Now the E retention is incredible, cant believe that a 3,400Kg kite could float this way (with 0 rpm and looow speed). In the landing pattern you can do anything you want, your kite doesnt stall (and doesnt bleed E, no way).

[SOB]

Easymo...I'm curious.  What makes you think that they're dumbing everything down in the sim.  You've posted that the gunnery is dumbed down to make it harder to be killed, and more recently with 1.04 that they're now dumbing down the flight model to suit 'the masses', despite HT posting to the contrary on both issues.

Do you have any data to back up your opinions?  Do you think HTC is just flat-out lying when they post that they're tweaking the flight model to what they feel is realistic, based on historical data?  Or is this just one of those Opinions are like amazinhunks things?

Honestly, no flames or bad intentions here...just curious what your modivations are.


SOB


[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 09-14-2000).]

[wells]

 

I do have one question: is it possible that if you factor down the
                induced drag value would that alone be enough to allow a fuselage to
                be an efficient airfoil? Would there still be enough 'raw' lift? I honestly
                don't know, but am curious.

First, consider how a wing creates lift.  Air has to flow over/under the wing to create a pressure difference that opposes gravity, right?  Air will always flow the path of least resistence, so in order to make the air flow over/under, you need to give the wing some span and an aspect ratio greater than 2.  With an aspect ratio of 2, you can expect only 50% lift efficiency as a large portion close to the tip will flow spanwise.

With a fuselage, aspect ratios are somewhere around 0.1-0.2.  Air flows 'around' these surfaces, rather than over/under, so lift is miniscule, about 10% that of a wing of equal planform area.

 

I really miss the old FM. Now the E retention is incredible, cant believe
                that a 3,400Kg kite could float this way (with 0 rpm and looow speed).
                In the landing pattern you can do anything you want, your kite doesnt
                stall (and doesnt bleed E, no way).

If you call 2700 fpm 'floating'...LOL
I think a helicopter will autorotate at less fpm than that, at least the one I was in did.

Perhaps WWI is more your style?

[easymo]

  I dont measure a sim by realism. You cant get two different sim developers to agree on what is "real". And these guys do this for a living. Trying to get two players to agree is hopeless.

 I measure a sim on the boredom factor. For me, the more complex a sim is, the longer it takes to get bored with it.

 If you read the whole thread. And posts on other threads. It should be obvious that im not the only one who thinks the FM got a little, magical

[SOB]

cc...that makes sense.  It was probably the 'wwII online guys sticking to their guns' remark that snagged me more than anything.  Just sounded like you think they're intentionally steering away from realism, and I don't agree...but I may have read it wrong.

I've seen other remarks about flight modelling being off, and they may be right or they may be wront...how the heck would I know?  I just look at it as a work in progress and anything broken will be fixed.  i.e. If I had solid numbers in my hot little hands that showed the Niki had something wrong with it's flight model, and I supplied the info to HTC, I'm confident that it'd be fixed.

Of course, that 'data' that I asked you for bores the hell outta me, and the moment data starts showing up in a thread is usually the moment I depart from it  


SOB

[easymo]

 My doubts(and that is all this amounts to, is doubts) come from somthing that rip brought up in his thread. He mentioned CK/WB and how it progressed over time. Well, we all know who built that sim. In other words, we know they have already been there. And already know how to do it.

 So I have to wonder why we have this FM. I suspect, that it is not because of tech problems. I think this might be a choice in the direction AH is takeing.

The readme file that came with the patch says. FIXED knife edge turning problem ect. That dont sound like the intend to do anymore with it.

[funked]

Keep reading Easymo, on one of these threads Pyro was acting pretty suprised that you could still maintain 175 mph and alitude in knife-edge.  I think we will see another patch within a week.

[Hangtime]

I diasagree Easy.. I think Pyro's got some of the issues dealt with in regards to rudder performance and drag modeling, but not all of it.

It's true that sideslip performance and rudder/cross control aileron performance still lag behind the status of the rest of the FM.. and I think he's aware of it; and will fix it in the next revison. By itself at this point; I don't think it warrants a patch.

Easymo.. I like yah. Yah usually manage to get me smiling.. but I too am begining to question your motivation regarding the unceasing critisim you have for the sim.

Make us all feel better.. we know you don't have a 'full' account; and that you usually fly head to head... and so that we don't conclude that your sentiments regarding Aces High devolve more around it's cost, and your unwillingness or inability to pay for it, please tell us what you LIKE about the sim for awile.  

Salute!

Hang