Author Topic: Seperation of Church and State?  (Read 3365 times)

Offline Frogm4n

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2003, 05:44:41 PM »
oh and democracy is all about compromise, ill support vouchers if we tax and disclose the income of every religous organization in the country.

(btw one of the big supporters of vouchers in florida are the scinotologists, do you really want these guys getting our cash)

Offline Chairboy

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2003, 06:18:44 PM »
I suspect many of these schools cannot meet minimum levels of quality in education when they teach the Creationist line as fact.  

If my child went to a school that taught that pi was exactly equal to 3 and 2+2=5, nobody would argue with me when I criticized the quality of teaching.  But suddenly it's ok to have my tax money go to organizations that cram hogwash into the impressionable minds of the people that will grow up to doctor my children, build the planes they fly in, and lead the country they live in?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2003, 06:42:35 PM »
Many public schools are failing to teach kids to read, and many high school grads probably coudn't tell you what pi is or represents, much less it's value.

I don't think a bit of creationism will hurt their ability to be productive members of society.
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Offline rpm

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« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2003, 07:03:41 PM »
OK, so we give vouchers so your kids can go to a better school. What happens when EVERYONE sends their kids to that school? You wind up with the same kids, different building.
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2003, 07:34:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
I suspect many of these schools cannot meet minimum levels of quality in education when they teach the Creationist line as fact.  

If my child went to a school that taught that pi was exactly equal to 3 and 2+2=5, nobody would argue with me when I criticized the quality of teaching.  But suddenly it's ok to have my tax money go to organizations that cram hogwash into the impressionable minds of the people that will grow up to doctor my children, build the planes they fly in, and lead the country they live in?


Non-sequiteur. You can't equate math with the theory of how the universe was created. Since both "creationism" and the "big bang" are theory, both have room for discussion in the classroom. As does the possibility that both may apply if viewed in a different light. Christians have managed to correctly teach math all along.

Are you really scared to death of people in medical and professional positions that are Christian? Then it's a good thing that not all Christians "cram their faith down your throat" since you probably have more intimate dealings with them than you're aware of. Truly, if you were familiar with the actual spiritual and moral side of Christianity (no need to provide examples of hypocrisy amongst them as exists amongst all) then you would more than likely prefer your physician, pilot, police officer or politician to be a Christian.

As to what schools can and cannot meet minimum standards, it's becoming all too evident that the public school system cannot meet the minimum standards under the guidance of the state and it's attempt to educate our children in an atmosphere devoid of both discipline and moral guidance and as such some states are actually dropping their standards, whereas most of the private schools, a majority of which are Christian, are able to maintain a decent level of education.

I'm afraid it's fairly evident that your reasoning is tainted by bias.

:D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2003, 08:00:34 PM by Arlo »

Offline Arfann

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2003, 07:36:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
What's with the "our" tax dollars. I'd rather decide where mine goes and let you do the same with yours. Even if it means giving it to Pat.


Hey, another hot idea!  I'll not have any of mine used for Dubya's mideast conquests, thank you very much.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2003, 07:38:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arfann
Hey, another hot idea!  I'll not have any of mine used for Dubya's mideast conquests, thank you very much.


Don't worry ... yours were probably used for vouchers.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2003, 07:57:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm371
OK, so we give vouchers so your kids can go to a better school. What happens when EVERYONE sends their kids to that school? You wind up with the same kids, different building.


All my kids are grown, but I do have 6 grandkids. I went to a public school and so did all 4 of my kids. We all got a decent education. However, not all public schools make that available.

I'd like for my grandkids to get the best education available, and that's more likely at a private school. One of my daughters can afford it but the other can't.

To answer your question, the difference would be the standards, both for the students and also the teachers. And if I don't like the standards I can find a school where I do.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Erlkonig

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« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2003, 07:59:03 PM »
Quote
Truly, if you were familiar with the actual spiritual and moral side of Christianity (no need to provide examples of hypocrisy amongst them as exists amongst all) then you would more than likely prefer your physician, pilot, police officer or politician to be a Christian.


This is not true.  

I'm afraid it's fairly evident that your reasoning is tainted by bias.

:o

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2003, 08:13:41 PM »
Quote
Erlkonig quotes me saying to Chairboy:

Truly, if you were familiar with the actual spiritual and moral side of Christianity (no need to provide examples of hypocrisy amongst them as exists amongst all) then you would more than likely prefer your physician, pilot, police officer or politician to be a Christian.

(I'm afraid it's fairly evident that your reasoning is tainted by bias.)



Quote
Then Erlkonig replies:
This is not true.  

I'm afraid it's fairly evident that your reasoning is tainted by bias.

:o


Actually my reasoning is based on the knowledge of what Christ taught his followers to believe. If you prefer to call this bias, fine by me. Perhaps you don't believe in Christ, in the Christian Bible or the Christian views on the afterlife. That's fine. To make that a reason to avoid dealings with Christians due to their belief and morals seems quite bizarre from my perspective. But, of course, it's your choice. And it's a bias. I never claimed I had no bias ... just that I can't understand the basis for yours. :D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2003, 08:26:27 PM by Arlo »

Offline Ike 2K#

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2003, 08:24:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
You sure youre from LA?  :D


im from Los Angeles an it seems to me that people here have no religion except the people who immigrated here to los angeles in less than 3 years.

Offline Erlkonig

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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2003, 09:58:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Actually my reasoning is based on the knowledge of what Christ taught his followers to believe. If you prefer to call this bias, fine by me. Perhaps you don't believe in Christ, in the Christian Bible or the Christian views on the afterlife. That's fine. To make that a reason to avoid dealings with Christians due to their belief and morals seems quite bizarre from my perspective. But, of course, it's your choice. And it's a bias. I never claimed I had no bias ... just that I can't understand the basis for yours. :D


That's okay, my reasoning is based on daily consultations with a tea leaf reader and the insightful editorials published in the Weekly World News.

I was hoping you'd try to justify your claim that non-Christians would prefer dealing with Christians (over non-Christians, as far as I can tell) had they a deeper "spiritual and moral" understanding of the religion.  I spent seven years in a Jesuit school - maybe that counts for you, or not.  But for me, a person's religion rarely ever figures into wanting to deal with them or not - exceptions being like a certain minority of Christians who see biology class as a stepping stone for introducing their religion into public schools.

Offline rpm

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« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2003, 10:48:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron

To answer your question, the difference would be the standards, both for the students and also the teachers. And if I don't like the standards I can find a school where I do.


I understand where you are coming from. What I am saying is Private schools supposedly are better because they are smaller. If you give everyone the right to pick their school it will become overcrowded. The system will not as effectively carry the load of a smaller student body. You will degrade the Private school education. Vouchers are not the answer.
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2003, 10:48:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Erlkonig
That's okay, my reasoning is based on daily consultations with a tea leaf reader and the insightful editorials published in the Weekly World News.

I was hoping you'd try to justify your claim that non-Christians would prefer dealing with Christians (over non-Christians, as far as I can tell) had they a deeper "spiritual and moral" understanding of the religion.  I spent seven years in a Jesuit school - maybe that counts for you, or not.  But for me, a person's religion rarely ever figures into wanting to deal with them or not - exceptions being like a certain minority of Christians who see biology class as a stepping stone for introducing their religion into public schools.


Then you completely misunderstand my challenge since no such claim was made. I asserted that if Chairboy preferred non-Christians over Christians when it came to professional and personal matters of life and death (or even serious issues that weren't life threatening) based soley on their faith and belief or lack thereof then I think his rationale is flawed. If the person in question knows their science/art/profession and their spiritual belief does not run counter to it .... and, in fact, their spiritual teachings enhance their moral stance when dealing with their fellow man, then why should he use their spiritual belief as a basis for mistrust?

Bear in mind here that Muslims and Jews share the fundamental Christian belief in the origin of the world/universe/humanity and that other religions have their own different ideas that aren't in keeping with either the big bang theory or Darwinism. Do doctors, scientists and other professionals that have these various beliefs also deserve such aversion or is it just Christians that qualify? Should one prefer a person who is just Christian/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/Buddist in name and not belief? What does that say about their true character? Do only atheists deserve trust or respect for their knowledge and ability?

Christians who take their discipleship seriously have proven to benefit humanity every bit as much as members of other persuasions. Such an anti-Christian general bias serves none. You claim you don't use that as a basis yet you felt obligated to to speak up. Then again, you also seem confused on my stance. Hopefully this part of my post made it clearer.

As far as making it a point to keep Christian beliefs and viewpoints out of education, doesn't that sound just a little bit more like an anti-Christian agenda and less like a well-rounded education? After all, I never advocated the elimination of Darwinism or the big bang theory from the system. I will say that all theories in public school should be given an equal amount of creedence (without undue bias for or against one or the other) but to eliminate the Christian perspective yet allow all others is every bit as much an attempt to impress your own beliefs and morals upon the young without allowing them to form their own as it is your claim of Christians desiring the same.

Whether you seem to realize it or not, you have an anti-Christian bias that makes itself too readily apparent at the slightest perception, on your part, of pro-Christian/anti-anything else rhetoric. Was it your disillusionment after your seven years of Jesuit training that may have made you overly sensitive to this particular issue, you think? Not that that's truly the case but we both know that intensive religious training doesn't neccesarily result in one being a true disciple of Christ (or even result in an intimate knowledge of spiritual truths). Many a former priest can tell you that. Some current ones can if they can trust you to keep thier confessions in confidence. Christianity is no more immune to hypocrisy than any other religion, belief or philosophical claim. But to brand any and all of a particular belief as hypocrits based on your personal dealings in the past certainly seems like you're harboring unresolved issues.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2003, 12:54:02 AM by Arlo »

Offline eskimo2

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2003, 12:53:11 AM »
I used to teach in a public school.
I now teach in a Catholic school.

And I believe that the district handled this appropriately. The aid intentionally disobeyed a law that separates church and state even after she was warned. Yes she has a right to her freedom of religious expression, but not in a public school. Public school teachers have special unique obligations because they can have a real influence on children.

One example is that teachers MUST be a positive role model for children. If a teacher had a history of making pornographic films, belonged to a gang, had a drug history, or had a serious criminal history, would the public want them teaching? Is it OK to not hire teachers over these issues?

An opposite example is that education is the one area where it is sometimes OK to discriminate hiring based on race or sex. The vast majority of teachers in the US are white women (esp. in primary ed.). A school of mostly poor, black, no-father-figure students, taught only by white women is less than ideal. In this situation, it may be OK to seek men and blacks for teaching positions, simply because they can be a role model other than a white woman. These kids may desperately need to see blacks and men in a different light. Blacks may especially have an easier buy in when it comes to respect and classroom control.

Religion is the same deal. All public school teachers should not discuss their religious beliefs. Some students greatly respect their teachers. It may not take much to counteract a parents religious (or nonreligious) beliefs. All public school teachers have a constitutional obligation to appear neutral when it comes to religion.

Let this woman wear her cross in school, and the next thing you know, Osama Bin Laden is YOUR kid's kindergarten teacher!  

eskimo
« Last Edit: April 25, 2003, 12:55:57 AM by eskimo2 »