Author Topic: Seperation of Church and State?  (Read 3827 times)

Offline AKIron

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #75 on: April 26, 2003, 10:19:22 AM »
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Originally posted by midnight Target
A democracy is measured by its protection of the minority, not its service to the majority.


To further your argument, the ultimate minority is the individual. The rights of which must not be sacrificed for the good of the "minority".
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Arlo

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #76 on: April 26, 2003, 03:54:34 PM »
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Originally posted by Arfann
As a card carrying member of the group known as "everyone", I must refute your above statement. My own personal trump card to prove I have no bias against Christianity is the fact that I don't (usually) squeak-slap them when they come to my door to save me.


Hell of a testament there. I missed out on the droves of Christians in this thread trying to save you.

 It seemed more a matter of what is and is not an acceptable measure for a school system to take when it comes to the rights we enjoy as far as our personal expression of our beliefs is concerned. There are some here that would try to have me believe that it was a legal and fair action as supported by the first amendment. That rationalization didn't convince me. Nor did it convince Karnak from what I gathered. And until you or anyone else here can come up with a better argument than "Well them was the rules of that school system, so there!" or "Yes! That cross around her neck was placing those kids in dire jeopardy!" then it seems obviously more of a case of bias than logic.

You can keep with your current stance if you want ... or you can try to actually convince me. But I don't think you're really interested in the latter, anyhow. ;)

Offline eskimo2

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #77 on: April 26, 2003, 08:05:59 PM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
eskimo... are you saying that the school is there to be black childrens "fathers"?

all schools should have to acheive minimum educational standards... Public schools don't do it now and do it even worse the more money we throw at them.   Priveat schools do more with a LOT less..

It is a question of focus... they (public schools)have lost so much focus that it is allmost impossible for them to regain it.   Money won't help... we have to start all over..  vouchers are the sensible way.   vouchers will indeed pay the entire cost of education.   Those who think that public schools don't cost parents any additional money are wrong... parents are dunned for money on a weekly, allmost daily basis.  

public schools are a bloated unfixable mess.  Private schools outperform them in every way measureable.
lazs


Sometimes teachers do have to play a bit of a parent role.  Aside from teaching kids to read, write, add, and subtract, teachers have to teach kids how to follow rules, the difference between right and wrong, how to show basic respect for other people, and so on.  A heck of a lot of parents are not doing their jobs, and a lot of kids are very neglected and are not heading down the road to function as contributing citizens.  Not only does it need to be done for the sake of the whole child, but many kids are so socially behind that they are not capable of learning the basics in the classroom.

Have public schools lost their focus?  From what I’ve seen, it’s the laws, written by non-educator politicians that create so much extra work, red tape, and educational standards that teachers are required to cover.  When you look at a first grade curriculum, and see the amount of; economics, science, social studies, health topics that teachers are required to cover, its no wonder time left for learning to READ and WRITE has been cut thin.

It is not fair to compare public schools to private.  Public schools are required to accept all students, regardless of special needs, attendance history, behavior history, etc.  

As a public school teacher I had more special needs students in my class than we have in my entire private school of almost 500 kids.  I also had more severe behavior students per class than we have in our entire school.  

In private school, we can just kick them out.  I’d say about ¼ of my old PS students would get kicked out of my private school for their behavior.  

In public school, it can be nearly impossible to force students to attend, and to do their homework.  The kids know it and often their parents don’t care.  I had a student who missed over half of the school days of the school year.  We did all that we could to turn mom in for allowing her kid to be so truant.  She skated by because the laws are so protective of parents.  We couldn’t even hold this kid back a year.  Mom insisted that he should go on to the next grade and there was nothing that we could do about it.  In my private school, that would never happen.  Our kids attend school, and they do their homework.  < notice the period.

Typical kids at my old public school had parents who spent little time with them.  Most parents had spent time in jail.  Dad was often out of the picture.  Some parents openly used drugs and got drunk in front of their kids.  Some kids didn’t have a bedroom, they slept on the couch.  Many bounced from mom’s house one night, to grandmas, to uncles, etc.  Parents usually had minimal education.  The PTA had 4 parents (out of 600 kids).

At the school where I now teach, parents are doctors, dentists, architects, soccer moms, business men/women, etc.  The parents make sure their kids do their homework, and usually help quite a bit.  Major social problems are much more rare.  Our kids are polite.  Families go to church.  They shell our money for their kids to attend our school.

Our test scores are quite a bit higher, go figure.  

I guess it is a clear indicator that we are doing a better job than the public schools.

eskimo

Offline Arfann

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #78 on: April 26, 2003, 08:09:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Hell of a testament there. I missed out on the droves of Christians in this thread trying to save you.

 It seemed more a matter of what is and is not an acceptable measure for a school system to take when it comes to the rights we enjoy as far as our personal expression of our beliefs is concerned. There are some here that would try to have me believe that it was a legal and fair action as supported by the first amendment. That rationalization didn't convince me. Nor did it convince Karnak from what I gathered. And until you or anyone else here can come up with a better argument than "Well them was the rules of that school system, so there!" or "Yes! That cross around her neck was placing those kids in dire jeopardy!" then it seems obviously more of a case of bias than logic.

You can keep with your current stance if you want ... or you can try to actually convince me. But I don't think you're really interested in the latter, anyhow. ;)


Nope, no droves. None claimed, either. Another obvious case of failure to comprehend.

If you, or the teacher's aide don't like the rule or think it's unconstitutional don't ignore it, challenge it. If you just ignore it you will get whatever punishment that entails. I typed the preceding V E R Y  S L O W L Y so you'll understand.

Offline Arlo

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2003, 12:03:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arfann
Nope, no droves. None claimed, either. Another obvious case of failure to comprehend.

If you, or the teacher's aide don't like the rule or think it's unconstitutional don't ignore it, challenge it. If you just ignore it you will get whatever punishment that entails. I typed the preceding V E R Y  S L O W L Y so you'll understand.


More likely you typed it slow because of your disability, tard but I don't discriminate so I'll still say you're stupid. :rolleyes:

I've been challenging it. LOL :D

Offline Leslie

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2003, 12:25:58 AM »
Teachers and teacher's aides have certain privileges the students don't have, f.g smoking cigs in the teacher's lounge.  Students do it too, but theoretically they can get in trouble for it, and the teachers can't.

I'm not sure whether the dress code is enforced on teachers, as it is on students, i.e the teachers don't wear uniforms like the students do.  (When was last time you saw your Math teacher wearing a suit and tie in public school while teaching a class?)

Some public schools may have parking lot areas reserved for teachers.

............................. ............................. ............................. .................



This is how I see the situation.  If there is a clause in the TA's contract that specifically mentions a dress code where no jewely is to be displayed, except wedding ring, then the TA is in agreement with that clause when he is hired and agrees to the terms, (or in this case, when she is hired.)  Crosses worn on necklaces are commercial jewelry, for all practical purposes, and don't necessarily mean the wearer is a Christian.

If there was no such term in the contract, then the TA didn't legally agree to it, and could have legal recourse.  It all depends on the agreement and its terms.

On the other hand...............here, the students may have more rights than the teachers, since they are required by law to attend school.  In the case of a student's religious requirements to wear certain dress, such as a skullcap, etc... this should be allowed, for, if not, then a case could be made for dispossessing freedom of religion.  It would not be a fashion statement, but rather a requirement of their religion to ceremonialize specific recognized and accepted observances during a specified period of time, and at a certain age.  I believe Jews and Muslims wear skullcaps during religious rites of passage.


Arlo and Karnak have made some good points, and I wish there was more respect for religion taught in public schools.  Whether you believe in it or not, it is a fact in this world.  True religions teach non-violence and compassion for others.  No one will argue the world wouldn't be a better place if there was more of that.



All



Les

Offline eskimo2

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2003, 06:27:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Leslie
Teachers and teacher's aides have certain privileges the students don't have, f.g smoking cigs in the teacher's lounge.  Students do it too, but theoretically they can get in trouble for it, and the teachers can't.

I'm not sure whether the dress code is enforced on teachers, as it is on students, i.e the teachers don't wear uniforms like the students do.  (When was last time you saw your Math teacher wearing a suit and tie in public school while teaching a class?)

Some public schools may have parking lot areas reserved for teachers.

............................. ............................. ............................. .................



This is how I see the situation.  If there is a clause in the TA's contract that specifically mentions a dress code where no jewely is to be displayed, except wedding ring, then the TA is in agreement with that clause when he is hired and agrees to the terms, (or in this case, when she is hired.)  Crosses worn on necklaces are commercial jewelry, for all practical purposes, and don't necessarily mean the wearer is a Christian.

If there was no such term in the contract, then the TA didn't legally agree to it, and could have legal recourse.  It all depends on the agreement and its terms.

On the other hand...............here, the students may have more rights than the teachers, since they are required by law to attend school.  In the case of a student's religious requirements to wear certain dress, such as a skullcap, etc... this should be allowed, for, if not, then a case could be made for dispossessing freedom of religion.  It would not be a fashion statement, but rather a requirement of their religion to ceremonialize specific recognized and accepted observances during a specified period of time, and at a certain age.  I believe Jews and Muslims wear skullcaps during religious rites of passage.


Arlo and Karnak have made some good points, and I wish there was more respect for religion taught in public schools.  Whether you believe in it or not, it is a fact in this world.  True religions teach non-violence and compassion for others.  No one will argue the world wouldn't be a better place if there was more of that.



All



Les


Schools do NOT allow teachers or anyone to smoke on campus.

I always wore a coat and tie while I taught public school, even though it was not required.  At my Catholic school, students wear uniforms, male teachers wear coats and ties.

In some areas, teachers do have more rights and privileges than students.  And in others, students have more rights and privileges than teachers.

I have no problem with a PS student wearing realigious things to school.  They were not hired by the state to represent the state.  For the same reason, students should also feel free to discuss religion in school.

eskimo

Offline Leslie

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2003, 08:41:10 AM »
LOL Eskimo.   My experience is based on an artist's grant from the Alabama State Council on the Arts...$500 bucks for five appearances to local high schools in Baldwin County, to show my etchings and talk about them.  One of the high schools was Foley, near Gulf Shores, Alabama.  This was the absolute roughest, toughest high school in southern Alabama.  The Art teacher was also the P.E. coach and football coach.

I had apprehensions about going to this school, so I asked one of my friends to go with me...a very attractive woman (she got several whistles, and I stared the punks down...LOL)  She was a real trooper and had a calming effect on the miscreants.

That is my term.  The coach explained to me there were so many bad boys in the class, that they would would not be allowed to look at my etchings because they would disrupt the class and cause trouble for the good students.  He was very positive about this.



Les

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2003, 09:12:02 AM »
eskimo... are you saying that private schools wouldn't do any better than public schools if they had the same mix of students?

Seems that in NY they did a test wher a Catholic school took 100 of the worst public school kids and improved the scores of something like 80% of em.  

Are you sure that at your provate school that if you took those students and put them in public school.... that they wouldn't then become problem children?   seems that private school kids that end up in public schools show a drop in performance and an increase in bad behavior.

No... you are not their parent.. I don't believe you should be.. you can be a role model seperate from a parent and should be.   Perhaps some kids shouldn't be in the same classrooms as the rest.   Why let a few drag down all the rest?   Perhaps some percentage of children should be incarcerated... they will be anyway..

For whatever reason... public schools have lost their focus and it would be impossible to wrest it from the buerocrats and unions at this point.... tear it down and start all over...

 set academic standards and issue vochers.
lazs

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2003, 10:05:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
eskimo... are you saying that private schools wouldn't do any better than public schools if they had the same mix of students?

Seems that in NY they did a test wher a Catholic school took 100 of the worst public school kids and improved the scores of something like 80% of em.  

Are you sure that at your provate school that if you took those students and put them in public school.... that they wouldn't then become problem children?   seems that private school kids that end up in public schools show a drop in performance and an increase in bad behavior.

No... you are not their parent.. I don't believe you should be.. you can be a role model seperate from a parent and should be.   Perhaps some kids shouldn't be in the same classrooms as the rest.   Why let a few drag down all the rest?   Perhaps some percentage of children should be incarcerated... they will be anyway..

For whatever reason... public schools have lost their focus and it would be impossible to wrest it from the buerocrats and unions at this point.... tear it down and start all over...

 set academic standards and issue vochers.
lazs


Lazs,

I'm saying that a major reason why private schools do better than public schools is that they do not have so many restrictions placed on them.  Take any business, tell the employees that they cannot be fired for any reason, and watch what happens to the performance of that company.  This comes from politicians who make laws "protecting" all children's right to learn.  They think that by keeping all kids in school no matter what they do, they are helping the situation.

As a private school teacher, I spend a lot more of my non student contact time writing lessons than I do dealing with BS-red-tape-paper-work, and giving tests.  Again, politicians require so much documentation and testing from PS teachers that there is little time for the important things, like learning.  

I would also bet that kids from private school who switch to public drop academically and behavior gets worse.  NOT because PS teachers don’t know what they are doing, but because they have almost NO authority and their job has been made so difficult by politicians.

From what I’ve seen, average private school teachers can get great results (academically and behavior wise) simply because students must do what they are asked to do.

In public school, I’ve seen great teachers “fail” with some students because they have no means to force them to do their work.   What do you do with a PS student: who refuses to do their work, is disruptive in class, has parents who could care less what their kid does in school, or in some districts - even refuses to attend?  Suspension -  “Woohoo!  A free day off all by myself!”
Expulsion – Good luck, hope you have all of your documents in order!
In school suspension – if the kid didn’t behave or do his work in class, they are not going to do much better in the principal’s office.

In some situations, PS teachers have been given an impossible task.  

And yes, I agree.  Teacher should not HAVE to play the role of a parent.  The problem is, if you ignore it, it doesn’t go away.  You still have to deal with those kids who are socially screwed up and not ready or willing to learn.  It’s like being a house framer who’s asked to frame on a mud foundation.  You can ignore the foundation problem and get nowhere fast, or you can do your best to pour a foundation and frame at the same time.

eskimo

Offline Arfann

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« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2003, 11:55:44 AM »
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Originally posted by Arlo
More likely you typed it slow because of your disability, tard but I don't discriminate so I'll still say you're stupid. :rolleyes:

I've been challenging it. LOL :D


Well, it's a bit of a stretch, but I'll try to meet you on your own level.

I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I?

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #86 on: April 27, 2003, 03:05:01 PM »
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Originally posted by Arfann
Well, it's a bit of a stretch, but I'll try to meet you on your own level.

I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I?


Hmmmm .... looked way too natural actually. Try it again and pretend the glove doesn't fit. ;)

Offline Arfann

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« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2003, 04:58:28 PM »
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Originally posted by Arlo
Hmmmm .... looked way too natural actually. Try it again and pretend the glove doesn't fit. ;)


Oh, yeah, right. WTF does OJ have to do with it? :confused:

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2003, 08:44:15 PM »
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Originally posted by Arfann
Oh, yeah, right. WTF does OJ have to do with it? :confused:

Ok .. look ... I'll be a good samaritan and help you get back on track.

Your line: Roolz iz roolz iz roolz and dis here rool suitz me fine so tough titty and all that so dere.

My line: It's not a very good rule and it's actually unconstitutional.

Your line: Iz nawt unconstitoo-shunal! Roolz iz roolz is roolz is roolz is roolz is ....

My line: You need a better argument.

Your line: Well then why down't you just chall-inge it? Huh? You down't compre-hind me or ennathang else tew well.

My line: I think you may have at least part of a point there. You don't make much sense.

And now ....

Your line:


:D

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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Seperation of Church and State?
« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2003, 09:47:12 PM »
First of all, this: "In God We Trust" wasn't on our money till the late fifties. It was not the forefathers idea, it was an anti-commie movement that produced that inscription AND the "under God" in the pledge.

Secondly, it's NOT unconstitutional. She wasn't told she could not wear it, she was told she could not display it.

Can't wear shirts that sponsor products in public schools either, like coke or Miller Light.

But I won't try to change your mind as you requested of someone else, your's is already made up- that's pretty clear.
-SW