When are the CVs gonna get hardend?

[Krusher]

off subject a bit:
The fact that you could be on line for hours doing carrier opps. Controlling its path, launching raids, capping it etc. Only to have someone with a higher score take it over and effectivly end your operation is whats a tad bizzar.

Have you ever had a guy who is at a land base, decide he needs the carrier to steam halfway across the map to hit a base. What normaly happens is 10 minutes after its arrival the enemy sink it because admiral yamamoto is too busy driving tanks to defend the carrier he brought to the party.
 
IMO
A carrier should only be able to be controled by someone working from that carrier. When you take off from a land base you lose control for 30 min or more.

A squad should be able to pool their perk points and "BUY" a carrier of their own. Talk about incentive to keep it alive  
yea so what if it isnt realistic, neither is
buying a 262 <G>

btw, every carrier should have a few drone cap fighters just like it has drone gunners.

just saying

[lazs1]

fishu and sling and some others get it... kwea doesn't..

It would take 4 or 5 guys on tard watch to stop one no talent suicide bomber or even one high alt fluff...  The four or 5 guys would have to be talented and sacrafice their time online doing something totally boring for the benifiet of people who wouldn't even appreciate it for the most part.

kwea.. it is unbalanced.   the suicide bombers and fluffs have far more effect on the game than their skill and effort would warrant.   It really is that simple.

I find it odd that people will accept innumerable concessions when dealing with fluffs because... "people won't fly em if they are realistic".  yet, they balk at making cv's tougher to counter the bombing gaminess.
lazs

[lazs1]

and besides... CV's are fun... They are a lot of fun... Some of the best fights in the game center around them..

They are high priority targets for the "enemies of fun".
lazs

[Minotaur]

PT Boats are rediculously easy to kill.  

Lots of perk points for them also.  

Find a PT dweeb and you can build 50-70 perkies in big hurry.

[llbm_MOL]

I like Krushers idea's, and the idea about a cruiser group that is seperate but part of the cv group. I don't like the AI planes idea. Be like Nancy, just say NO to AI...or was that HO????

LLB OUT!!!

[MrLars]

Originally posted by Minotaur:
PT Boats are rediculously easy to kill.  

Lots of perk points for them also.  

Find a PT dweeb and you can build 50-70 perkies in big hurry.

 MrLars has 251 kills and has been killed 125 times in the PT Boat.

Come get some PT dweeb  

[Buzzbait]

S!

I don`t agree that it takes a lot of people to guard the CV.

I have several times been in situations where it became apparent that the CV was going to become a target.

In particular, last tour, one instance where the enemy captured the home port and the CV was within one area of the port.  I spotted several red dots incoming an area away and I upped in a Zeke and climbed to 15,000.

Over the next 20 minutes I got a B17, two Mossies, and a heavy Corsair.  (A Zeke is actually an excellent plane for taking out a B-17, since it can do lazy turns as it approaches and avoid return fire)

Eventually another friendly upped from the CV as a second CAP and the enemy gave up.  We sailed the CV out of range.

This tour I was pretty much the only CAP high when a CV group was right off a functioning enemy field, with another field close behind.  I got 6 or 7 kills in a Hellcat, despite the aircraft coming almost continuously.  (had to refuel once and died once)  Only because the person conning the TG refused to move it out of harms way did it eventually get toasted.

If you are a heavy fighter or bomber trying to get in position above the CV ready to make a run on it while someone is hammering away at your butt, you have serious difficulties.  You can`t maneuver with your enemy, and likely you are slower.  Either you drop your ordanance and fight, or you forget about getting directly above your target and instead put your nose down in a dive and go in at a less steep angle, rolling to avoid the aircraft on your tail.  But if you do this, because you are not making your run vertically, you are in the cone of fire from the AA longer.  Thus, you are going to increase your chances of getting taken out by flak considerably, and also reduce your chances of hitting with bombs by even more, since you must now survive till you are very close to the target vessel, since your bombs will not be falling vertically onto the target.  Instead you have to rely on the aircraft`s forward momentum to carry them to a hit.   Which is tough to do unless you are D 1.0 or less.

It is easy to spot incoming dots to a CV and know it is time to put up CAP.  Only someone who is too lazy to watch their map is going to have a problem.

Besides CAP, you should also have a guy who is responsible for maneuvering the TG.  If you`ve got a enemy attack about to happen, then the TG should be put into a hard turn.  It is much more difficult to hit a CV which is circling than one which obliges its attackers by sailing a straight course.

The guy who is conning the CV should also consider taking a 5" AA gun position if an attack is happening.  These can be deadly accurate with some practice.  Any attacker who doesn`t maneuver very well is going to get splattered quick.

The whole key to operating a TG successfully is teamwork.   You need several people, and you need people who are responsible enough to understand it needs protection.

If you have that, you shouldn`t have a problem.

On the other hand, if you have a bunch of bozos  who couldn`t care less, then their party is going to be spoiled fast.

[mauser]

Last night I decided to take up an f4u-1 and 1d to do some CAP.  The bish cv was in the area between a7 and a1, and the sector bars were full of friendly and knits.  The knit cv was to the east also.  Most of the fighting was sea level, and I saw a few half-hearted attempts at using TBM's on both sides (there were a lot of PT boats in the area too though).  I was surprised our cv was still up, and stayed up for as long as it did.  When I first logged in, I manned the 5" guns for a little while.  A mass sea-level ju88 raid came inbound to the cv, which was subsequently broken up.  There were about six of them, and only 2 made it out.  I also nailed a high lone p-47 that looked like it was starting it's dive.  Anyway, our cv was finally sunk by a suicidal Mossie.  Someone mentioned on country channel a mossie was ib to the cv.  I then spot it, lower than me about 5k out being chased by two bish.  I go into a dive, but it was too far for me to catch up due to the geometry.  Whoever was commanding the cv was doing a good job since he/she began to turn the cv sharply as the mossie began it's dive.  It wasn't a steep dive either.  The mossie's dot merged with the cv, I saw an explosion (the mossie) and the cv went down.  There was no attempt to pull out.  

At one time, it required about 6k to sink the cv.  I remember taking up corsairs with 2k ord and dive-bombing the cv.. rinse, repeat until it sank.  Starting from 10k, I would dive when I was over the cv, and as the ack started I'd roll slowly to try to avoid it.  I'd pull out toward the bow of the boat and release when my gunsight moved over the bow.  Right after release I'd try to jink as much as possible, rolling left, right, down, etc.  This actually worked well for me, as I was able to return to base a few times I got lucky.  I forget how many perk points that makes, but it should be pretty good with the 1.25 multiplier on landing.  

I don't really have an opinion on the cv.  In the situation above, there wasn't a big attempt to cap which is bad (I'm easily amused in this game and so grabbing alt and doing CAPs doesn't bother me much even though I don't have much time to spend online), the cv captain was obviously paying attention and tried to jink/steer the group away (good), and the cv was in "international waters" and not right off the coast of an enemy airfield (also good).  I don't recall how many pounds of explosive were carried by kamikaze in WWII, but I know even 1k makes a pretty big impression. However, we know a few of the big fleet carriers (this one we have is a fleet carrier right?) limped home after getting hit by all kinds of stuff.  

I like skernsk's idea of treating it as a field.. disabled flight operations and then destruction based on tonnage.  Disabled time may depend on extent of damage (250 lb will take less time to repair than 500lb).  Would possibly make people think more carefully about how to use the cv (then again...) Overall an increase in the required tonnage to destroy would be nice (if of course the real-life cv's could withstand said tonnage).  Game wise, if it required more than 2k (the current max bombload of most of the fighters we have), I think it'd help a lot.  Then, the lone wolf guys would need to either go through the "drudgery" to lift off and grab alt again in a 2k armed fighter (the fastest method of getting tonnage on target), select a bomber (which is more time consuming, but should only require one trip), or get a friend to help.  

This is all if of course most of us want to see the cv hardened/changed.  Ok, so I do have an opinion, but like the other things in this game, it wouldn't bother me much if things didn't change.  

mauser

[Buzzbait]

S!

If the Mossie actually impacted with the CV, then either whoever was an AA gunner on the TG was an incredibly bad shot, or there wasn`t one.

You`d have to be legally blind to miss as big a target as a Mossie coming in at a low angle directly towards a CV.  With the proximity fuses on the 5 inch AA guns, close counts.  And if a 5" hits, instant fireball and end of problem.  Even one of the 40mm batteries would tear off a wing with one hit, which means the Mossie is gonna miss since its tough to place bombs on target in a vertically cartwheeling aircraft.  

Likely, no one was manning the guns, so the aircraft got through.

On the subject of the CAP not being able to get on the Mossie:

Since you describe the Mossie coming in at a low angle, it can`t have been very high.  Which means the two planes who were chasing it, can`t have been very high either otherwise they would have intercepted it easily.

All it takes is a climb to 15,000 ft to be in perfect position to break up an attack.  Even 12,000 would likely be enough, since most attacks start in the 5-10,000 ft range.  I like 15,000 because then you can gain 5,000 ft quickly enough to deal with a Lanc or B-17 which comes in at 20,000.

[lazs1]

buzz... I am at best a mediocre pilot but.. you are full of it if you think you can climb to 15k to stop my hog with a zeke... even a titanium AH zeke.  especially if it is surrounded by B17's If I wanted to suicide dive you couldn't stop me with a zeke.  The P47 is the suicide plane of choice tho.   They get taken out it seems about half the time by the ack.   That means that they have to fly 2 whole sorities to kill the cv.   they seem to have no problem with that..
lazs

[Voss]

I noticed last night that I could sink a CV with 3k, but I couldn't take out the Shore Battery with the same load.

I think every map should have the CV's at the same hardness (i.e. requiring 8k). The reason is simple. One Arado can deliver 3k of eggs. Toughening the CV to require 8k would require three trips by an Arado, and in that time the CV would have repaired the initial damage. That would defeat the laser accurate Arado. Turning a CV from an Arado can be difficult to time. Lanc's and Fortresses can be defeated by a good Captain, simply by turning the CV at the appropriate time.

This durability (8k toughness) proved itself well in the NDIsles map and I think it would even things out for the other maps as well. It doesn't matter what your CAPping strategy is suiciders will get through, and given enough numbers even an 8k toughness will not be enough to keep the CV floating. As it is now, the suiciders don't even bother to get 5k alt. They simply come in on the deck and attempt to auger into the waterline. CV's don't last long under that kind of attack and only a 2.5k toughness.

[Kweassa]

2ks disabling it for certain amount of time seems like a reasonable compromise. CVs would smoke when hit, indicating disabled. In this case, total of 4 to 6k to completely sink it is understandable.