Author Topic: Planes entering strange stall  (Read 470 times)

Offline davidpt40

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
Planes entering strange stall
« on: May 01, 2003, 08:09:40 AM »
Just about any 'heavy' fighter in AH will enter this strange stall.  So far I have tested Ki61, P51, Temp, and F4U.

Heres the conditions.  Full flaps, gear down.  Pull the nose up to about 80-90 degrees, reduce throttle to idle.  The plane will usually just fall flatly.

First discovered this in Ki61.  Was trying to lose speed for landing, pulled nose back, dropped gear and flaps and reduced throttle.  The 61 fell sideways and would not allow the nose to be pointed down.  Strange.

Offline Shane

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7942
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2003, 08:39:07 AM »
welcome to the hell that is a "flat spin."
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2003, 08:40:45 AM »
try stalling a 152, or a yak-u, they both have sideways stalls, worse than other planes. usually happens only when you allow them to slow down enough in the right angle where control surfaces have no effect.   the yak's is easy to put back straight except it takes relatively a bit of time if fighting, and the 152's stall is much worse, just shutting off engine as for the yak isn't enough.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline RedDg

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 998
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2003, 08:45:54 AM »
Try out a P47-D25 for you experiment:D

Offline cpxxx

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2707
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2003, 09:05:23 AM »
It's not that strange just a function of aerodynamics and physics as simulated on AH. Just don't try it in a real aircraft.  Without going into a full lecture on stalls and spins and why they are a bad thing. Basically once the airflow is sufficiently reduced over the controls they become ineffective, once in a flat attitude there is no forward movement so the controls remain ineffective and you sashay downwards with plenty of time to enjoy the view. Adding power can allow the elevators to become effective again and break the stall.

Try it on landing, full flaps and gear down, fly as slowly as possible, you'll find as you get slower there comes a point where you have to add power in order to fly slower. This is the back end of the drag curve. Fly even more slowly still and keep adding power until it stalls. See what happens. Not something you want to do in a real aircraft.

In AH I've run out of fuel while on short finals dragging it in with full flaps and gear down. I mushed straight in. You need hundreds of feet to recover some airspeed usually you have no chance of recovery.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2003, 06:24:32 PM »
Fly a P-38.  You have to really work hard to get it into a flat spin.


Ack-Ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2003, 08:43:04 PM »
Ah yes.. the flat spin.. can also be developed into the inverted flat spin where you fall on your backside while spinning/shaking on your yaw axis..

 Probably the single biggest reason why u can't just rope Spits or N1K2s whenever you want.. you have to maintain the 'safety margin' where you can do the vertical reversal safely, while N1K2s and Spits can just nose up and aim till they reach 0mph, and then shake the buns a bit and recover down, and start maneuvering immediately..

 Seems like the 'safety line' is about 100mph or so for most planes, and the P-38L can go down a lot lower than that safely..

 ..

 Which leads to the question:

 Is it really that hard to go straight 90degrees vertical, and then apply just the rudder to flip over quickly?

 I notice that in some planes, the 'apply rudder' style of clean Immelmann where you turn 180 degrees almost entirely on your yaw Axis, and then nose down straight, is almost impossible when the speeds reach lower than 100mph. The plane just refuses to nose down, and finally the nose starts pointing sideways and it enters a flat spin..

Offline Saintaw

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6692
      • My blog
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2003, 01:35:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Fly a P-38.  You have to really work hard to get it into a flat spin.


Ack-Ack


I did it, I did it!!!
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline Booky

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 344
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2003, 02:57:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saintaw
I did it, I did it!!!


LIAR, you can't stall a P-38, it is totally impossible to stall that ubercraft:D  Now my Hog on the other hand, She stalls nicely, usually right about the time I am trying to lay her down for a little.......:rolleyes:

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2003, 09:24:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx
It's not that strange just a function of aerodynamics and physics as simulated on AH. Just don't try it in a real aircraft.  Without going into a full lecture on stalls and spins and why they are a bad thing.


Good advice for light civils, but the military doesn't generally operate this way, AFAIK.

A few years ago, I was flying sailplanes at Tehachapi with the Navy Weapons Test Squadron and the Edwards TPS. I had four flights in three different aircraft and we stalled every one of them deliberately. I was amazed that each had it's own peculier characteristics.

Also... the Navy schedules departure/spin flights on an annual or semi-annual basis (I can't remember which) for the fighter pilots (and probably all the other tacair guys too)... I'm not sure what they use today, but fifteen years ago, they used to go up in A-4s in Miramar and spin the plane on purpose.
sand

Offline davidpt40

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2003, 10:05:09 AM »
What would cause an A4 to spin?  I thought jet engines produced mainly linear thrust.  

Or by 'spin' do you mean the aircraft flopping all around in uncontrolled flight?

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2003, 10:12:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Booky
LIAR, you can't stall a P-38, it is totally impossible to stall that ubercraft:D  Now my Hog on the other hand, She stalls nicely, usually right about the time I am trying to lay her down for a little.......:rolleyes:


tss tss ... I've seen Saw stalling a landed C47 :D

Offline Scootter

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1050
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2003, 12:19:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by davidpt40
What would cause an A4 to spin?  I thought jet engines produced mainly linear thrust.  

Or by 'spin' do you mean the aircraft flopping all around in uncontrolled flight?



Uncoordinated flight will cause a spin, one wing stalls before the other wing. You can spin any AC including a glider (it is just a bit harder) just get to the onset of a stall and kick a bunch of rudder in. You may need to help break the wings lift on that side by the use of a blast of power or even a bit of aileron in a very stable AC like a C-172). Remember that to spin one wing MUST stall first or no spin. If you are not coordinated ( ball not centered) flight and you get close to a stall you are deep in spin territory. Also remember you can stall at any airspeed not just slow, a snap roll is a wing stall due to an accelerated stall on one side, and is most often done at high speed. A stall is the wings angle of attack being to great, and  the resulting loss of airflow over it.

Offline 1Duke1

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 804
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2003, 07:14:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx

Try it on landing, full flaps and gear down, fly as slowly as possible, you'll find as you get slower there comes a point where you have to add power in order to fly slower. This is the back end of the drag curve. Fly even more slowly still and keep adding power until it stalls. See what happens.

Not something you want to do in a real aircraft.



You have to raise the nose along with adding the power to get slower.  If you don't raise the nose, you WILL get faster.  Basically this is how you enter the proper attitude for flying "flats".  But, you will get to a point where even at full power, you will exceed the stall angle of attack of the plane, and will start falling out of the sky.  The angle of attack is a set number, but airspeeds will vary.

The military practice stalls all the time, and I think they are in civilian training also???  If you don't know how your aircraft reacts when it stalls, you won't know how to counteract or recover from it.  

Stalling a plane in a controlled environment is actually rather benign.  These would be for example a wings level stall where the pilot maintains an altitude, while pulling the throttle back to idle.  As the airspeed decreases, the pilot tries to maintain zero vsi until the plane stalls.  Recovery is usually as simple as releasing the back pressure on the stick/yoke and letting the nose fall to build airspeed.

An approach turn stall is pretty much the same, except as the name implies, you are attempting a turn on to final.  Here instead of using power to maintain altitude during the approach turn, you keep pulling back on the stick to raise the nose.  As you do so, the airspeed bleeds off until the plane stalls.  Recovery here is also different in that you have to used coordinated stick/rudder to get wings level and also go full throttle (you are simulating being close to the ground).

Accelerated stalls are practiced by the military and not so much in a civilian plane, unless it is a high performance aircraft.  These can easily lead into a spin if you are caught by suprise, or don't know how to handle them.

Wow, didn't mean to go on for this long, but not too often I get to talk about something I actually know a little about and have practiced:D
Duke

Offline 1Duke1

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 804
Planes entering strange stall
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2003, 07:21:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM


Also... the Navy schedules departure/spin flights on an annual or semi-annual basis (I can't remember which) for the fighter pilots (and probably all the other tacair guys too)... I'm not sure what they use today, but fifteen years ago, they used to go up in A-4s in Miramar and spin the plane on purpose.



During flight training, Navy pilots will to spin and recover the T-34C Mentor, and the T-2C Buckeye.  Both planes are easy to spin and recover.

Once they are flying fleet aircraft, out of control flight and spin training is done through the use of simulators, and it is annual training.
Duke