Author Topic: Malin: tolerance and understanding (warning: long & philosophical)  (Read 273 times)

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Malin: Only by education can you remove ignorance. And education from an early enough stage along with things like tolerance and understanding will go alot further than anything else to resolving problems.


 Malin, a philosophical question for you.

 By definition education is - or supposed to be - the process of removing ignorance.
 Hence your statement "Only by education can you remove ignorance" is an absolute trueth if only because it is a tautology - repetition of the same sense in different words - "only by the process of removing ignorance can you remove ignorance".

 I have no problem with that sentense of yours containing zero information for all of us here* and mention it here just as an example of how all people after a certain early age usually speak and even think in cliches without realising it. Our speach is redundant, that's our human nature in general (some rare geniuses of writing style can go whole pages without a single meaningless word).

 What I do have problem with is another cliche you've employed - using the words "tolerance and understanding" in one breath. Other that by an unexamined prejudice on person's part or religious belief that a world is arranged in a certain way, I cannot explain how a person would conclude that understanding caused by education necessarily leads to tolerance.

 By definition, "tolerance" in the sense "forbearance" as we use it here** involves tolerating discomfort caused to us by someone else. Even the dictionary says "Tolerance: The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others." It links "recognising" - which is much the same as "understanding" with "respecting" which is synonimous with "condoning" and "excusing" and  - yes -"tolerating".

 After all, if we did not feel discomfort to us from someone - rude behavior, noise, smell, perceived competition for resource, potential danger, causing envy by being too wealthy or ruining property values by being too poor, etc. - there would be no need to tolerate such a person.

 Granted - in many cases understanding of them would produce for us reasons to tolerate them. We do not want to unreasonably abuse the wealthy becasue we may end up wealthy, we may go through the poor period or our children could. Their condition is expected to improve - in general the "tolerable" uneducated are expected to obtain education, the uncultured are expected to obtain culture and join "us" and live togehther and be co-ancestors to our own descendants, so any abuse against them would be an abuse among in-laws within a family and thus counter-productive to our descendants well-being, etc.

 But in many cases understanding makes us realise there can not be any common ground and that the danger is real or that differences are not surmountable or that those people are not desirable co-ancestors of our descendants under any circumstances, etc. Because they are too different - or because they very similar to us and the planet is too small for both or any other reasons.
 Understanding how honest and well-meaning people came to believe in nazism is not expected to make us tolerate nazism. Understanding how some culture/religion came to become militant does should not make us tolerate it's existance. Understanding that some poor fellow's troubles in life are caused by his genes certainly does not want one to see those genes in his descendants, etc.

 We could use our understanding of things that prove incompatible to us -  like Islam - to help us reduce/avoid damage and hostilities - by keeping out of their domain and banning its penetration into ours - thus allowing both to co-exist in this universe through being intolerant to them.
 Or we could be justified to use a newly aquired understanding to escalate the hostilities rather than resolve them in the sense of reconciliation.


 Other than self-delusional wishfull thinking, I see no reason to use "understanding and tolerance" together in general.

  Alternatively, a person may be assured that he/she has complete understanding of the particular situation and that it warrants tolerance.
 But when a person cries for need for "developing understanding" it is obvious that he admits not having one yet and his assumption that the tolerance is/will prove warranted is absolutely groundless. "We need only to understand those muslims/cannibals/communists/nazi/desease carrier and we will realise the necessity of tolerance..." - how the heck would he/she know before that understanding is reached? Forming conclusions before the research is started is not a productive practice, though it's very common in politics.


 You - Malin, used that statement in the particular context of the West having causes most of its current problems with the muslim world and I may actually agree with that.
 You could have rightly said that you believed your education gave you good understanding of the sutuation and that in your view tolerance was justified in this particular case. We could have argued that but it would have been a technical argument rather than philosophical one (wars rarely starte becasue of a technical argument).

 But saying that education - whether of us or them - would develop understanding and lead to tolerance on either part and willingless to live together - it's illogical. Unless you mean education as brainwashing them to unquestionably accept our values and abandon theirs, the more complete understanding could lead to more intolerance and demands for complete separation of our cultures or war to extermination of one side or at least culture.

 Why would anyone who fully understood the expansive and evangelistic character of our modern socialist democratic (in reality mobocratic/plutocratic) culture and its tendency to drive the afflicted population to the breakdown of family, morals and demographic self-extinction - why would anyone would tolerate penetration of such culture into their own traditional society?

 Showing traditional muslims more of our uncensored movies or TV shows or news reports and showing our audience the uncensored customs of muslims would definitely educate both sides and provide understanding - and increase mutual intolerance enormously. They hate what we value and what we are most proud of and vice versa.
 So getting out of each others' hair and letting whichever side crumble naturally is a good idea. Education? Interaction? Not so hot.

 Any thoughts?
 miko

------------------------------------------------------------------------
* I assume all of us here knew already what "education" was.
** I had to put "in the sense we use it here" lest capt. apathy fire up his thesaurus and claim that the word "tolerance" means "the permissible deviation from a specified value of a structural dimension" or "acceptance of a tissue graft or transplant without immunological rejection" or some other such nonsense. He may have trouble differentiating discussion in epistemology from one in mechanics of biology.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2003, 12:03:27 PM by miko2d »

Offline Syzygyone

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
Re: Malin: tolerance and understanding (warning: long & philosophical)
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2003, 11:04:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d

 Any thoughts?
 miko


Truly interesting post.  But, my only thought is that this is the way wrong place for it.;) ;) ;)

Offline Malin

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Malin: tolerance and understanding (warning: long & philosophical)
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2003, 12:17:52 PM »
Apologies Miko you are quite correct. I lost the train of thought and screwed it up. What I had in mind was:


By Tolerance and Understanding I meant that more people should tolerate a situation/person/religion until they have understand the reasons behind it, once they have understood those reasons/ideas/theology etc then make a decision on how to act not before, funnily enough by taking the time to understand a situation (tolerate the situation whilst seeking understanding) may lead to the conclusion being made that no action can be taken and said situation should then be tolerated indefinitly. To be perfectly honest you explained what I wanted to achieve in your statement:

Quote
But when a person cries for need for "developing understanding" it is obvious that he admits not having one yet and his assumption that the tolerance is/will prove warranted is absolutely groundless. "We need only to understand those muslims/cannibals/communists/nazi/desease carrier and we will realise the necessity of tolerance..." - how the heck woule he/she know before that understanding is reached? Forming conclusions before the research is started is not a productive practice, though it's very common in politics.


Other than the last bit where you claim politics is the only place where conclusions are formed prior to research, theres sadly lots of examples on this board where people have reached conclusions prior to carrying out the research (for example the original thread I was posting to)

In regards to education I should have distanced this more from the other part of the reply. It is possible for both muslims and non-muslims to live side by side, this is proven in both the States and Europe. The situation as I see it is that certain countries (middle east and elsewhere) by selective use of education/media and Religion do effectively "brainwash" others into extremism.

For example in a certain middle eastern countries (and funnily enough Finsbury Park London) you have people "educating" the young into believing that anyone who isn't a muslim should be killed, and by killing a non-believer you are improving your chances of getting into heaven (or wherever it is they go:). This is an example of education in it's worst form.

You and I on the other hand (and numerous others here, though I do have doubts about some) have had access to an educatiuon system that isn't influenced by religion or other extreme influences and by the nature of our upbringing are more understanding of others beliefs, colour and feelings.

I am generalising I admit and apologies for rushing my previous post.


Malino.

P.S. Nazism is a good example of what education influenced by extremism can do, the persecution of the Jews was acceptable to younger Germans purely because they had been brought up to believe that to be Jewish was to be sub-human, therefore by killing a Jew you were helping cleanse society. (the scary thing is that it's this type of influence that is being exerted onto young Muslims).

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Malin: tolerance and understanding (warning: long & philosophical)
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2003, 02:15:26 PM »
Malin,

 Minor point - I said predjudice (which is what we were talking about) was very common in politics, not specific only to politics. I wish it were just in politics...

 Concerning the muslims and other groups, if one of the goals of their culture is preserving itself, inoculating its adherents with intolerance against outsiders would make them less likely to abandon such culture. That is especially important for those living next to a foreign culture and in danger of losing children to assimilation. (See "The though Contagion" book for good description of culture propagation.)
 Considering that this particular culture is expansive - if only because they reproduce faster than us - the only remedy for us is to deport them, place ghetto walls around them or destroy such culture. That call for destruction can be veiled behind a call to modify it by making it compatible with ours but once hostlility to outsiders - the main protective feature of it - is removed, the children will assimilate, abandon religion, clan, family and morals, etc. and their society would disappear.
 It may be fine for some to have children assimilate - unless the culture into which they assimilate cause them harm (drugs, alcohol, no procreation) but what if one's religion/culture specifically proscribes it? No compromise is conceivable here.

You and I on the other hand have had access to an educatiuon system that ... and by the nature of our upbringing are more understanding of others beliefs, colour and feelings.

 You are flattering me and I am sure many people here would not agree with you on how good and balanced my education was. :)

 But I will argue another less obvous point - that in some respects my education, while making me more empathic and sympathetic to other people circumstances and feelings made me less tolerant of their existence.
 For example, there are vast categories of humans (of all races) whom I exclude from consideration as being co-ancestors for my descendants - not because of their personal fault or any other flaw that can be remedied, but for the genes they inherited from their parents.
 I would not care about them one way or another if they did not affect me - and I am not worried that my descendants would run into theirs in competition for resources. But it is intolerable to me that I am coerced to part with my earnings for their support or that their cultural preferences affect me through voting on issues that constitutionally should not be a prerogative of the government. This way their existence hurts my interests - in the short run and in the long run. It's not greed. I do not mind my money being spent on some people across the planet while I would not like it being spent on some people across the street.

 With some it's religious. A christian cannot expect his descendants to coexist with muslims (unless totally separated) and for one religion not to supplant another - through conversion, demographic out-reproducing, etc. Christian that takes his religion seriously would not consider a future in which his descendants lose their faith as an acceptabe future.

Nazism is a good example of what education influenced by extremism can do

 Just because they called it "education" does not make it education as we define that term, even if what they taught corresponded to their state of knowlege and they were sincere in imparting it on their young.

 But let's imagine that they got a real education corresponding to the factual knowlege we have now. Imagine that instead of their explanation why jews were disproportionately respresented among rich, powerfull, cultural and scientific elites - being inherently evil, having supernatural influence, talent for deceipt, etc. - we offered them the modern explanation.
 What if we showed them with reproducible tests that ashkenazi jews are somewhat genetically superior to germans when it comes to intelligence (~15 IQ ponts), that having half of top positions occupied by jews despite miniscule fraction among population was just a natural and mathematically predictable outcome?

 Granted, some would have tried to marry ashkenazi (there is an argument if they are really jews rather then an offshoot of hazara tribe adopting judaism) and urged their children to, in order to have smarter descendants without caring what label they would carry as their nationality.
 Some would just ignored the issue and breathed with relief that their neighbour is not a devil's spawn but just a valuable member of society.

 On the other hand those who's culture dictates them to preserve their national identity and purity of blood would have seen much greater and much more real danger in jews than they did before that would not have been solved by simply resisting jewish influence or even by deportation.
 In this case true education combined with underlying culture would be expected to produce quite an explosive mix.

 miko
« Last Edit: May 02, 2003, 02:17:45 PM by miko2d »

Offline Malin

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Malin: tolerance and understanding (warning: long & philosophical)
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2003, 02:26:35 PM »
Hi miko,

Quote
there are vast categories of humans (of all races) whom I exclude from consideration as being co-ancestors for my descendants - not because of their personal fault or any other flaw that can be remedied, but for the genes they inherited from their parents.


I'm the same but I would consider it more of the "live and let live" line of thought. I too get pissed off when my hard earned money gets spent on supporting these so called "under priveleged people" (my poll tax has gone up 15% this year (poll tax is a tax on my home) not to pay for the services and utilities where I live like it's supposed to but to pay for the 30,000 immigrants that are in the country from Afghanistan (of which my goverment has returned 30).

The bit you have at the end IMHO is entering the other great failing of humanity, Envy and Greed, which is also the cause of most robberies, burgularies and muggings.


Malino

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
Malin: tolerance and understanding (warning: long & philosophical)
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2003, 03:08:17 PM »
Malin: Envy and Greed, which is also the cause of most robberies, burgularies and muggings.

 Envy - wishing your neighbour had less - is a truly evil and irrational and destructive impulse, as opposed to JEALOUSY - wanting to have the same that he does.

 GREED, on the other hand may be the most beneficial for society when the proper social arrangement - free market - harnesses it in such way that in order to satisfy one's "greed", one  is motivated to labor as to provide others with what they wish.

 "Live and let live" is a great motto, as long as its necessary flip side "Live and let die" is not interfered with.

 If someone is not willing to let others "die" (go bancrupt, live in poverty, fall victim to substance abuse, etc.), that well-wishing person certainly cannot allow me or you or other working people to "live" unmolested, undrafted, untaxed and unreglulated.

 miko