Author Topic: why moore should lose his oscar...  (Read 1328 times)

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
why moore should lose his oscar...
« on: May 02, 2003, 11:06:40 AM »
"Columbia's Board of Trustees Votes to Rescind the 2001 Bancroft Prize
 

 
 

Columbia University's Trustees have voted to rescind the Bancroft Prize awarded last year to Michael Bellesiles for his book "Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture." The Trustees made the decision based on a review of an investigation of charges of scholarly misconduct against Professor Bellesiles by Emory University and other assessments by professional historians. They concluded that he had violated basic norms of scholarship and the high standards expected of Bancroft Prize winners. The Trustees voted to rescind the Prize during their regularly scheduled meeting on December 7, 2002 and have notified Professor Bellesiles of their decision.

The Bancroft Prize, which was first offered in 1948, is to be awarded for works in American history of "distinguished merit and distinction." The selection criteria for the Prize specify that it "should honor only books of enduring worth and impeccable scholarship that make a major contribution to our understanding of the American past." Professor Bellesiles' book seemed to fulfill these criteria at the time of selection. However, it has since been the subject of substantial debate within the community of American historians that included charges that Professor Bellesiles had committed scholarly misconduct in the use of some of his primary source materials.

In response to these charges, Emory University, where Professor Bellesiles holds an appointment, established a panel of three distinguished scholars from other universities to conduct a review. On October 25, 2002, following this review, the panel issued a report. In it, the panel members found "evidence of falsification" with respect to one of the questions they were asked to consider; spoke of "serious failures of and carelessness in the gathering and presentation of archival records and the use of quantitative analysis" on two others; and questioned "his veracity" with respect to a fourth. They also concluded that he had "contravened" the norms of historical scholarship both "as expressed in the Committee charge and in the American Historical Association's definition of scholarly 'integrity.'"

Columbia's Trustees considered the report of the Emory investigating committee and Professor Bellesiles' response to it. They also considered assessments by professional historians of the subject matter of that report.

After considering all of these materials, the Trustees concurred with the three distinguished scholars who reviewed the case for Emory University that Professor Bellesiles had violated basic norms of acceptable scholarly conduct. They consequently concluded that his book had not and does not meet the standards they had established for the Bancroft Prize.

In making their decision, the Trustees emphasized that the judgment to rescind the Bancroft Prize was based solely on the evaluation of the questionable scholarship of the work and had nothing to do with the book's content or the author's point of view.
 
Published: Dec 16, 2002
Last modified: Dec 16, 2002"

this so called work of history was recieved by the academic and critical crowd with gushy wet spots in their panties... most reviewed the work before it was even published... the book was chosen because it had the "right agenda"   that is to say... the left wing, anti gun agenda...

When will the lefties learn?  I mean... they know that they themselves are capable of bald faced lies to make their point but they fail to make the connection that everyone who feels as they do will also.... bald faced lie to make their point.

the award has been given out since 1948  it is somewhat prestigious... sorta like an oscar only among the thick glasses and bow tie, thin hair, big forehead crowd.

Like the oscar for moores 'documentary" it was given for all the wrong reasons.... the biggest reason was that it had the PC agenda...  It "felt" good.   To their credit.... when faced with the massive evidence of fraud in the book... the group did the right thing and took away the award...

bellisiles has since resigned from his professorship because he can't work in such a "hostile" environment... (read, he has been expossed as the charlatan that he is and is too cowardly to face the music).

lazs

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2003, 11:14:22 AM »
Quote
Like the oscar for moores 'documentary" it was given for all the wrong reasons....


Do you really think the Oscar for best Documentary is given for the best journalism? Or even for the most accurate?

Sorry to burst your idealistic bubble Lazs, but it about creating an entertaining movie from actual footage (as opposed to acted).

Offline Hooligan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2003, 11:18:13 AM »
MT don't you believe that documentaries should be factual?

Hooligan

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2003, 11:24:29 AM »
If you can point out an Oscar winning Documentary that had NO SCENES that were either out of sequence or staged or mislabeled, I will agree with you.

There's factual, and then there's factual. Documentaries are a depiction of the facts as he filmaker sees them... no Moore, no less. (pun intended)

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2003, 11:26:59 AM »
yeah... I'm missing the point too hooli... what exactly do you mean MT?  

Perhaps we could have your definition of "documentary" and you could explain how flat out lying in one is acceptable within that defenition?

My point was that "arming" was given an award for being an "historical" work... when it was found that it was more lie than history the award was recinded.

moores work is billed as a documentary and has been found to be anything but... it is moore lie than documentary.

 perhaps the solution is to not recind his oscar but to simply change the category from "best documetary" to "best agenda in a documentary style format"?

I realize that the oscars can't slip much in "presige" beyond what they are now but...
lazs

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2003, 11:34:38 AM »
From Here


"Documentary defines not subject or style, but approach. It denies neither trained actors nor the advantages of staging. It justifies the use of every known technical artifice to gain its effect on the spectator....To the documentary director the appearance of things and people is only superficial. It is the meaning behind the thing and the significance underlying the person that occupy his attention....Documentary approach to cinema differs from that of story-film not in its disregard for craftsmanship, but in the purpose to which that craftsmanship is put. Documentary is a trade just as carpentry or pot-making. The pot-maker makes pots, and the documentarian documentaries."

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2003, 11:42:08 AM »
By that definition even Triumph of the Will is a documentary... :rolleyes:

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2003, 11:54:30 AM »
The book in question was a falcified study.

 The Oscars are just the matter of opinion.

 When the trustees were awarding their prize, they were deceived about the validity of Bellesiles' research.

 When the Oscar judjes voted for Moore, they knew exactly what they vere voting for.

 You, Lasz, would be more consistent urging people to ignore the "Oscar" institution rather than support it by fixing it's defects. Those are not superficial defects but the nature of the institution and the people it represents.

 miko

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2003, 11:55:06 AM »
very good MT... now show me how that has anything to do with flat out lieing (the plaque at the B52) or shooting scenes that are out of sequence in order to make them appear to say something they are not (as in Hestons case)...   moores work is every bit as agendized as "triumph of the will" and not nearly as well done.

My pont is... what will people growing up think when they find out how far from reality a "documentary" can be and still get attention and accolades?   what example does moores work set?  Why is it wrong to ask for the truth and at what point do you say "ok, that's enough of this crap"?

Could a film be a "documentary" if you simply dubbed words into the characters of said "documentary" so that they said whatever you wanted them to?   Would that be any different from filming them talking about one thiong but claiming they were talking about something entirely different?

MT... I believe that you tolerance for left wing liars far exceeds your tolerance for anything ever said by a right winger regardless of truth.   That is the downfall of the left.   That is why they are constantly hoisted on their own petard.   You're smart enough but you just can't help yourself..
lazs

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2003, 12:04:27 PM »
no miko... I believe that I am entirely "consitent"  I have correctly identified the forces at work behind the awarding of accolades in both cases...

What we are talking about here is standards... In both awards, standards are involved... In both awards.... "opinion" is involved.  The bancroft prize is awarded according to standards and... it is a matter of opinion... the opinion of the committee.

And... while I hold no high (or any other kind) of regard for hollywood or it's oscars....They must live by the same defenitions as the rest of us.   "special effects" must mean special effects... best actor must mean at the very least, an actor.... best documentary must at the very least be a documentary.

I don't really care if the recind it or not... I will not have any moore respect for them.... at least not at this early stage.   I simply want them expossed.
lazs

Offline Wanker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4030
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2003, 12:06:28 PM »
I find it humerous that Lazs and Hooligan are giving such importance to an Academy Award. Hell, I'm a huge film nut(and a liberal too!), and I consider the Academy Awards to be frivilous and trivial for the most part. The Academy Awards are not about the quality of the films, it's all about the insider political BS that determines which film wins as best picture, etc.

Why you guys even waste your breath on this subject is beyond me.

Offline lord dolf vader

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2003, 12:14:59 PM »
the guy is a major threat to their political agenda.

and its very very popular movie that promises to be seen by almost all the populace :)


they are left out in the cold as uncareing or worse. destroy the infidel!!


honestly its how these guys think, read a few threads character assasination of michael moore instead of who ever else threatens their reactionary view of the world.


they will go after me again for writing this. they cant help it.

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2003, 12:17:25 PM »
Quote
MT... I believe that you tolerance for left wing liars far exceeds your tolerance for anything ever said by a right winger regardless of truth. That is the downfall of the left. That is why they are constantly hoisted on their own petard. You're smart enough but you just can't help yourself..


I think you misunderstand me Lazs. I have no great love for Moore or his politics. I really think this Revoke the Oscar movement is much ado about nothing, and wouldn't exist without the NRA Lobby.

1. BFC is a good film. It is the highest grossing Documentary in history. And eventually it concludes that GUNS are not the problem.

2. All Documentaries are the vision of the film maker. Go watch some of those "Victory at Sea" films. Most of us here can spot inaccuracies and twists in the facts in all those films. Never saw a "Revoke the Oscar" movement though.

3. For a hardened-right-wing-toughguy group, the NRA sure has a thin skin.

Offline miko2d

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
why moore should lose his oscar...
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2003, 12:19:13 PM »
Lasz, logic of your reasoning is consistent - they behaved in violation of their own guideliness, which is still their right.
 It's your motivation that lacks consistence.

 If you hold no regard for Oscars, as I've correctly presumed, why the heck would you be interested in correcting its defects - especially if those defects are symptoms of fundamental systematic rot - or enlightenment, depending on view?

 Unless you hope to transform the Oscars into a balanced and objective organisation reflecting your values or at least representing the cultural values of the country, not just liberal left, why would you want to prop it up rather than let it totally discredit itself?

 Let them hand themselves.

 miko

Offline GtoRA2

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8339
LOL banana
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2003, 12:20:41 PM »
I agree with you on this one, the academy awards are a farse!



Let me also be the first to "go after" LDV

He is like Weasel, but with fewer and les valid points, lol, who could have believed it? :D