Bomb dispersion: what is it, exactly

[CavemanJ]

All the talk of the new buff stuff in 1.09 holds alot of promise and will probably pull me back into the cockpit of the heavies more often.

But this whole bomb dipersion thing worries me.  What, exactly, are we talking about?

Getting a "shotgun" pattern when ya pickle the whole stick?
Or just the possibility of being off your mark when hit the pickle?

IIRC the bomber steams would sometime miss thier targets by a mile or few.  Are we talking about adding that to AH?  What would that do to gameplay?  I know I have no interest in getting a buff to target only to miss.  I'll stick to my single engines, thanks.

Has anyone ever seen footage of a stick landing in a shotgun pattern?  All I've ever seen has been fairly straight lines.  Sometimes off target, but still fairly straight lines off target.

What about dive bombers?  Is it gonna become a crap shoot every time I launch a heavy fighter and roll in on my target?  Is this dispertion going to add the worry of being fragged by an egg that, because of this new stuff, landed farther forward than was intended?

I'm excited about the possibilities this could bring to the game, but I'm more worried about the adverse effects it has the potential to have.  When dispersion was added to field guns it really screwed them up, loading the field ack with 'golden BBs'.  A fast moving fighter in the ack envelope is toast, while you can do slow, lazy turns and never take a ping.  Is bombing going to end up as screwy as that?

[Sunchaser]

Hi Cave, long time.

Actually there are two bomb dispersion theories, mine and lazs's.

In mine the bombs hit near the target and blast radius wreaks havoc and in his they depart on seperate 65 degree angles on leaving the bombay.

Seriously, you raise some good points.

If dive bombing there should be no difference, hell, you are giving the bomb a 200 MPH+ push and they reach the target much faster than from high level bombers.

I think people are expecting dispersion to make bomber loads way less effective and that should not be the case.

In fact, if the craters actually create holes, as they did in previous versions, the howls will be immediate and deafening.

Imagine 4 B17s with 12 each 500s = 48 holes scattered around a field, try to take off around those.

I hope the new bombing setup leads to more strat for the heavies but, as we all know, it will probably just lead to 1 guy with 4 bombers wrecking forward fields and result in a river of tears from furballers.

This is not good, I have no problem with most furballers and totally understand their point of view, online time is limited for many and their pleasure is not enhanced if they have to fly when all they really want to do is fight.

The only real solution is for the people who say they are "strat guys" to just leave the main and fly in the CT.

No fun right now, the CT needs to have some things turned on, like if I bomb something not a field the damage shows.

Another thing is, as much as some may say score means nothing it just ain't so, we like to see how we are doing.

When HTC gets enough numbers of strat people who are really sincere instead of just talkers, we may have a bit more impact on the game.

Until then furballers better get a gross or two of crying towels, I will have 4....count em....four B17s OTW to wreck your stuff.

[Toad]

You're right Cave.

They usually land in pretty straight sticks. Simply because they all drop and fall under the same conditions.

Watch those old films and see how fast the 6 1k's in a B-17 come out of the bombay. They fall through the same atmospheric conditions because they are not very far apart in time or distance.

So, the shotgun pattern is unlikely; the string is the norm.

[lazs1]

sunchaser... I don't think many would like a bomber sim.   I bet that HTC makes it so you talentless fluffers can't control the game.  Face it..  people want to fly fighters. So long as fluffers stay in the background and don't make too much noise or have too much effect on the game they will be allowed to stay.
lazs

[AKDejaVu]

I cannot remember seeing an abnormal pattern in regards to bomb drops in any bombing footage I've ever seen.  The consistancy was always amazing.

Bombs should all fall the same way... its the Norden/site setup that is way too accurate.  Hopefully that gets adressed when the ability for one pilot to bring 4 heavy bombers on target is introduced.  Things like altitude and flying straight and level should affect bomb site accuracy.

AKDejaVu

[Karnak]

As I understand it, if the settings in the Norden were correct (Speed, altitude, wind shear) then the bombs would land within about 80ft of where the pip in the bombsight indicated.  Due to the "dropping on the leader" this point could be a mile or two off target while the leader is only 200ft off target.

It wasn't the bombsights that produced those kinds of misses, it was the mass bombing tactics that were being used.  Of course, if the settings in the bombsight are off, well, the further off the settings, the further off target the bombs would land.

The Norden also required the bomber to fly straight and level for 30 seconds prior to dropping.

[Urchin]

I'm actually very excited about the changes to bombing.  I REALLY hope they make it less pinpoint accurate, but put in much larger blast radii and craters.  Also also hope that the 4 bombers will be able to close a field by blowing the hell out of a runway (what is the maximum amount of craters that AH can show anyway?).  I hope that this drags the focus of the game AWAY from pointless furballing and TOWARDS strategy.  I.E. there will be rather large formations of bombers blowing the hell out of your country, it is your job to stop them (and hopefully they'll even be escorted).  People that like to furball can still furball, they'll just start higher  .  I do hope HTC finds some way to balance the firepower of the individual bombers with the fact that there will be large formations of them running around the skies though.  Anyway, that is it for me  .

[Keez]

I wondered what that blanc post wast in this thread, untill I realised that I have the Lazs ignore mode on.

Anyways, I hope it will be like B17 2: the bombs all fall together and land very close to eachother, but if you dont compensate enough for wind and speed, your bombs will overshoot, fall short or get blown to the side of the target. BUT if there is gonna be such a bombsight, there should be an AI tailgunner because it is gonna take some time to line up the shot. It is not seldom that I get waxed while in bombardier mode.
Anyways, my point of view.

[Dowding]

'Don't forget - Colonel Cathcart wants tight bomb patterns.'

 

[Blue Mako]

Anyone ever read the biography (can't remember the title) about Barnes Wallace, the guy who invented the bouncing bomb for the dam buster Lancs?

Barnes Wallace invented the 10,000lb(?) "Tall Boy" bombs that could be dropped with almost pinpoint accuracy from high alt.  They used them against battleships and sub pens etc.  The bombs were made to spin as they dropped, giving them gyroscopic stability.  They used a special sight which had to be held straight and level for 10 miles prior to dropping.

My point is that the technology was available in WW2 to hit with pinpoint accuracy.

The Norden sight wasn't as accurate as the one used by the specially equipped Lancs but it was still pretty good.  I think the arguments for a 80ft radius CEP (circular error probable?) are pretty valid.  Maybe the CEP for level bombers should be something like:

5000ft = 20ft CEP
10000ft = 30ft CEP
15000ft = 45ft CEP
20000ft = 60 ft CEP
25000ft = 80 ft CEP
30000ft = 100 ft CEP

If the blast radius effect of the bombs is realistic then this will make bombing more difficult but still accurate enough to make it effective and worth the effort.

As for fighter bombers, the skill of the pilot in aiming the bomb controls the CEP.  There need be no change to the current dive bombing physics IMO.

[Sunchaser]

So lazs, you have converted from bombers have too much effect on the game to as long as we do not have too much effect we will be allowed to stay?

Glad to see your position soften, there may be hope for you yet.

As far as being "allowed to stay" is concerned, I fear that as long as we send HTC $14.95 per month you are stuck with us no matter how much noise we make....or how many of your furball fields we blow up with our 4 each fluffs.

Bummer for you.

[Urchin]

I will say I hope they disable flgiht controls while in the gun stations.  I don't give a rats bellybutton if it was possible for bombers to take "evasive action" while their guns were firing, people are taking advantage of the ability to do absolutely RETARDED toejam.  Nothing pisses me off worse than watching a buff turn a perfect circle around the sky, not losing speed or altitude, while flying from the whoopee tailgun station.  I know that in real life the bomber gunners had absolutely stable firing platforms so they could fire while the bomber was putting on a aerobatics display, but I think having that ability in AH is stupid and gives a lone bomber far to much of an advantage over a lone fighter.

[Wotan]

look the way u fluffers bomb now is totally rediculous.

Your wings should be level and speed adjusted to tighten ur dispersion depending on alt.

Ofcourse a 500 or 100olb bomb will basically drop level that aint the point. I hope htc deals more with the bomb site and the "attitude" of the plane when bombing.

If the the plane is slightly rolling the bombs will hardly drop in the same spot.

Im not sure what ht meant by bomb dispersion either but I am very interested what he has planned.

Im not much on buffs in real life but could a buff drop 1 100lb bomb per bomb release?

 did they drop in front of the target and walk the bombs across the target?

could the bombadier set a release "delay" on each bomb? or when the bombs were dropprd did they all just gravity fall out of the bomb bay?

As for dive bombing the only thing that effects the bomb is the attitude of the fiter releasing it.

Theres a whole host of things I dont know about rl buffs (dont care really) but the way they are in here seems almost beyond what capability they have today.

I guess we will wait and see.

[Rojo]

My guess on what HiTech meant by dispersion was that the bombs would not simply follow a parabollic trajectory, with each one hitting exactly where the bombsite crosshairs indicated at the moment of release.  I suppose I could have asked for more detail when I interviewed him, but it was late and there was a lot of ground to cover.  In any event, each bomb will probably have a small random velocity component added to it, different for every bomb released, such that it will impact a little long/short/off to the side from the previous bomb.  The range of values for the magnitude of that dispersion velocity component will likely be determined by CEP for that munition/bombsite combo.  At least that's how I'd do it.

I've watched those old combat footage scenes too, and if you watch real close you'll see the bombs fall roughly in line, but not perfectly.  The same thing went for the spacing between blasts.

[Keez]

Originally posted by Wotan:
look the way u fluffers bomb now is totally rediculous.

Your wings should be level and speed adjusted to tighten ur dispersion depending on alt.

Yeah, so? I aint making loops when I drop my bombs.... what is your point?

 

Ofcourse a 500 or 100olb bomb will basically drop level that aint the point. I hope htc deals more with the bomb site and the "attitude" of the plane when bombing.

If the the plane is slightly rolling the bombs will hardly drop in the same spot.

Im not sure what ht meant by bomb dispersion either but I am very interested what he has planned.

Im not much on buffs in real life but could a buff drop 1 100lb bomb per bomb release?.

They could drop their bombs "per rack", I only know that in B17-2 a full bombload was made up out of 4 racks, which you could select independant of one another.

 
 

did they drop in front of the target and walk the bombs across the target

Yeah what else are they gonna do? Sit on the bombs with a little control stick manouvering it down towards the target?

 

could the bombadier set a release "delay" on each bomb? or when the bombs were dropprd did they all just gravity fall out of the bomb bay?

They could set release delay up to miliseconds.