How to Stop Buff Alt Monkeys & Make Bombing a Bit More Realistic

[ALF]

A good fighter can reach 30k in a very short time when compared to a buff....we are talking 1/5th the time in many cases.  Even at a modest 2500 fpm, 30k is only 12 minutes away.......there are many planes that do it in about 8, and a few that take even less time.  A good 30k buff run is a 45+ minute exercise.....and hangers stay down for a whopping 15 minues....wow...thats just so impressive

Sure fuel stays down longer....but most buff runs dont aim for fuel......thats a JABO issue isnt it


You want to whine about gaming the game...please explain to me why you can identify the difference between a F4UC and F4U4 from 3 miles away

[TheCage]

The KI-67s max altitude was just under 32K, and it’s optimal altitude was at 20k.

The B-17 depending on the model had a max altitude between 35-37k.   Most missions were flown between 20-25K.   For a short time they did fly missions between 12-15K because it was thought that they needed to get lower for more accuracy.   Due to heavy loss rates at the lower altitudes, it was decided to return to the higher level for bombing.  

You say you want more accuracy for the Buffs?   Name me one level bomber that had only one man operating the complete aircraft.   In another flight sim who’s name I will not mention, it takes two to make a bomb run.   A pilot, and a bombardier.   The bomb sight is simply calibrated by entering the speed and altitude.   This does not make for laser guided bombs and makes it as difficult as what we have now.   But if your looking for realism, then guns should be manned by a crew and not laser guided by one man.   Personally I have no problem with the buffs.  While a few have gotten good at using them, most have not.   There is no where near the amount of bombers flying now as there were before the change.    So just leave the buff drivers alone and let them enjoy the game the way they like it.   Otherwise lets talk about the 30K+ Zeros, La-7s, and just about every other fighter that flies that high that normally didn’t fly above 15K.   Where is the realism in that?   Oh and lets not forget the lone C-47 dropping 10 troops to capture a field or the never ending aircraft spawning from a base that is under attack.  Now that is really realistic for sure.

You have the right to your own opinion and to express it, but if a buff driver, or Zeke pilot like to fly at 30K+ then let them.   Who cares!  I sure don’t!   I amazes me just how much whining goes on, and just how much this game has changed because of it.   But if it’s realism you want then HTC should up the flight model to make it totally realistic.   As it stands right now the FM is not very realistic any ways.   It’s just a game, and everyone pays good money to enjoy themselves for a short while.   HTC has more important things to worry about then some guy in a KI-67 flying 30K+.   Enjoy yourself and just let people have fun.

[mipoikel]

I havent seen hi alt buffs for a long time. Most buffs today are very low making suicide runs to enemy field.

[zipity]

Originally posted by MRPLUTO
bockko,

When you make statements like that you need to back them up with facts...like I did.  I pointed out that what was going on was highly unrealistic and explained why, suggesting that it be changed for more realism and better gameplay.  

By the way, I can deal with 30K buffs; my complaint was against the 30K+ alt monkeys.  I've intercepted bombers that were at 35-36K.

MRPLUTO

Although I don't really agree with your reasoning I think a second wind layer would be fun.  I could add some additional challenges and I would be willing to put up with it IF some of the other HIGHLY unrealistic issues were dealt with, for example:

1) When I'm calibrating the bomb site, I should either have AI gunners manning the gun positions or at the very least a warning from a simulated gunner that a high alt fighter monkey was sneaking up my tail.
2) When my bombs, having traveled through both wind layers hit something they should damage it.  So if I rain bombs all over the runways, takeoffs on those runways should be suspended.  If I hit the tower with a couple tons of bombs, I should score a kill on all those tower monkeys hanging out there.
3) When my guns accedently spray a friendly escort fighter who is chasing a con, it shouldn't blow me out of the sky.

That doesn't even deal with many of the unrealistic advantages fighters enjoy at lower alts.  The thing is you can't just effect the gaming reality of people who like to fly in a way that you don't.  It doesn't really matter what the flight characteristics of the real planes were the only reality that matter here is that this is a game, people are paying money to have fun so why not let them.

[bozon]

if a buff pilot has the patience to climb to 30k and the skill to hit effectively from there - so be it!.

the divebuffs are much less realistic. I really give respect to those few buff pilots who use the plane as a level bomber and bomb through the sights.

Bozon

[Shiva]

Originally posted by ALF
Sure fuel stays down longer....but most buff runs dont aim for fuel......thats a JABO issue isnt it

Actually, when I'm setting up a high-alt buff run on a field, I look at the field layout and see what targets I can take out with various ingress lines; with a B-17, I generally look for a route that will let me hit four targets, whether they're hangars, ammo, fuel, radar, or barracks -- at least one hangar, because that makes it easier to get the proper line set up, but because you don't get any real effect from blowing one or two hangars at a field, getting the support targets like ammo, fuel, and barracks get a higher priority for me. And it's more satisfying to see the columns of black smoke rising behind me, anyway.  

[Pongo]

Originally posted by Pongo
As long as the fighters have to sit in thier cockpits on the ground for 4 hours waiting for buffs to come I think this would be a great idea.
If you want to be available to intercept buffs you have to commit to an airfield for a 4 hour stint. In the plane.
That would be more realistic and stop the totaly unrealistic "gameing the game" behavior or waiting till a dot shows up on dar telleporting to a near by field and taking off instantly in an interceptor with 1/2 fuel.

It would be easy to implement, fro more realistic and would be much more fair to the bombers. They could bomb from reasonable alt and have a higher sorti rate to boot.

no reply from mr pluto. His complaint was so well thought out I was sure he would have a goor reply to this. Oh well.

[MRPLUTO]

Hi, Pongo

Sorry I wasn't quick to reply...just been busy.

I think you're taking things to an absurd length to try and make a point.  But to take your point seriously, I'd challenge it by suggesting that if fighters had to do all those things, then most buffs should only be available on fields far from the front requiring round-trip flights of 5 to 8 hours.

Also, the radar would have to give the approximate altitude of the buffs and at a much longer range than we have now.

So there are many things that are unrealistic about AH.  I would point out, though, that teleporting to a field when dots appear on dar does not cause any unrealistic situation to develop.  In real life, someone would up and intercept incoming bombers sighted on radar.  And that what happens, even though the pilot teleported to his take off field.



 MRPLUTO'S ARGUMENT EXPLAINED IN TERMS OF YIN & YANG

First of all, Yin & Yang are not "good & evil"; they are opposites.  When they get out of balance, problems result.  All behavior or decisions made by combat pilots have consequences.  Some are good consequences, some are bad consequences.  If a certain behavior [i.e. flying buffs at 35K] only has good consequences for the bomber pilot, then we have an imbalance.  By flying very, very high they are out of range of all flak, and very difficult to intercept (see below for more on this argument).  However, what have they had to sacrifice in order to keep the cosmic balance

The only "sacrifice" is the time spent climbing to alt on autopilot, during which they probably do something else like eat or shower.  

Accuracy is still not a problem for any competent bombardier.  No gun positions or gunners will freeze up or die.

There must be a downside to climbing to 35k besides having the opportunity to do your laundry!

My suggestions would just restore a wee bit of cosmic balance to AH.  That's all I'm asking for!

*******

TheCage:

Your argument seems to be that because other aspects of buffing aren't realistic (one guy doing all the work; 10 troops parachuting onto a field and capturing it) then my point should be dismissed.  Clearly, there is no logic in that.

By the way, the problem is not just "some guy in a Ki-67 at 30K+".  It's more and more people.  And it's easily solved, I think.

*******

ALF

THE DIFFICULTY OF FIGHTING BUFFS AT EXTREMELY HIGH ALT

Although most fighters can get to the low 30Ks fast, it's what happens (or can't happen) at that alt.

At 34K most planes are not at their top performance, both in terms of speed and manuverability.  All but the most gentle flying will cause many planes to lose precious altitude.  And try aiming as your plane claws its way through the thin air.  

Sure you can climb above the bombers and zoom down on their six, guns blazing, but my extensive bombing experience (at lower altitudes) shows that this almost always results in one of two outcomes:  1) the fighter is shot down  2)  the fighter shoots down one bomber while being shot down itself.  That's not much fun, nor very intelligent or imaginative.

If one wants to survive attacks on buff formations one must use slashing attacks (from the left & right), head-ons, or get way above the buffs (not easy) and then drop down on them almost vertically and make your killing shot (very hard), then pull out of your dive and climb all the way back up again.  Slashing attacks, because they require the greater manuvering by the fighter, are unsuited to planes which do not handle well at extreme alts, which is most.  Head-ons take a long time to set up even at lower alts and once you make your pass, it takes a long time to get around into position again.

In practice, most fighters perform so poorly at these alts that even an excellent pilot will have difficulty making an effective firing pass.  And then will take forever to get into position again.  

The idea that you can just hop in any old fighter with half a tank of fuel and in a few minutes be blasting away at the intruders is quite fancifal.

Also, anyone who climbs to 30K+ to bomb hangers is a moron.  The buffs I'm dealing with are all flying to strategic targets, which stay down for hours.




MRPLUTO

[Pongo]

The problem with your version of events is that the teleportation device is what causes the bombers to climb higher. Period. Bombers are vulnerable to fighters. If the fighter is higher, then they are super vulnerable. The teleporter and dot dar lets any interceptor pilot get to 25k befor a bomber can threaten if he is watching the dar. So the teleporter is the fundimental issue with game play here...your babling about how poorly fighters handle at 30k is just that. Bombers go that high(extrordinarily rarely, but I will justify your pathetic whine with discussion) only because they are safer there..they are safer there because in the land of 11k fields and 4000ft per minute interceptors they have to be that high to get by the bulk of interceptors.
So if you were really honestly looking at gameing the game.. you would ask for a change to the move command. But if your just going to whine to try to make the bombers more vulnerable..go at it.
Ps.
I have never bombed from above the wind layer since it was introduced.

[straffo]

I agree we need badly the F104

[DmdNexus]

Though there are elements of this effect present in this thread, I believe is totally disregarding the "flatuarium effect".

This as some of you know is the inadvertant release of compressed gases in a pressurized and enclosed environment. This spontaneous occurance is extremely dangerous when it occurs near military high explosive ordinance and an open flame, such as a bombay and a lit cigarrette.

Please if you are flyinging in a high altituded bomber don't light up, and don't let your buddies light up. And stay away from the cucumbers, cabbage, and refried beans.

Many of the bombers that were lost during WWII were lost due to this phenomenon. No one survived. It's a horrible way to die, especially if your buddies cigarrette didn't fully light the methane.

Oh gawd the smell!! The smell!

Open a window!!!...

NO WAIT... WE'LL DECOMPRES...BOOM!

So many lives lost....

Please model this realistically...

[keyapaha]

I think the bigger problem is these low alt bombers making suicide runs at the field hangers,but not griping about it just that it is unrelistic but hey the whole MA is unrealistic.


  The Ki 67 is a very good bomber I fly it all the time usually at about 25k and very rearly see any enemy planes,probally because I only hit strat targets that are never defended.

[ALF]

Originally posted by Shiva
Actually, when I'm setting up a high-alt buff run on a field, I look at the field layout and see what targets I can take out with various ingress lines; with a B-17, I generally look for a route that will let me hit four targets, whether they're hangars, ammo, fuel, radar, or barracks -- at least one hangar, because that makes it easier to get the proper line set up, but because you don't get any real effect from blowing one or two hangars at a field, getting the support targets like ammo, fuel, and barracks get a higher priority for me. And it's more satisfying to see the columns of black smoke rising behind me, anyway.  

I can take out an entire small base with a B26

I can decimate a medium base with a B17

I can obliterate a large base with a Lanc....with MAYBE 1 fh left...depending on my accuracy.


Thats me...alone......a well flown bomber can kill all the FH at small and med bases with ease...and large bases you can wither totally destroy or at least make the Jabo job very small.

With 2 bomber flights comming from crossing directions, you can do it all in 1 pass.

[MRPLUTO]

Pongo,
Will you please stop using insults?

When I respond with ideas and well-reasoned arguments, your response is to accuse me of "whining" and "babling".  Can you not say why my arguments are wrong?

You keep saying that the "teleportation" is what causes the buffs to fly so high.  Pongo: I will point out once again that the "move" command does not create an unreal situation...In WW2 the Luftwaffe could see the buffs further out than we can with our ultra-short radar and knew the altitude as well.  As a result, the fighters were usually waiting for the buffs at a higher altitude.  (This is why the buff formations often made sudden turns to a target the Luftwaffe might not have been covering.)  If flying at well over 30K would have worked in WW2 our bombers could have been ordered to do so.  They weren't for the reasons I've stated serveral times now:  terrible bombing accuracy and cold.

There has to be a cost to the bomber for flying so high, doesn't there?  If not, please explain why.

Pongo, if you can respond without using insulting language and instead actually critique the arguments I've put forth in my posts here, then please do so.  But if you can't, then please don't bother to respond.



MRPLUTO

[qts]

One of the big drawbacks of alt buffing is the time. Your flight takes 90 mins and nets you perhaps 10 perks at best and activity is extremely limited. Flying a fighter, you can rack up many more in a shorter time and have much more to do. If you do supply runs to a field under attack in a M3, you can rack up huge numbers of perks.